Frankenpistol?

[Exmilcop]

Once again, I turn to the experts. I recently acquired a new (to me) pistol at a price that seemed too good to be true for our Canadian market. I've started going over it and it has some features that are different from others that I have handled and my keeper. It's .44 Russian, it has a 6-1/2" barrel and 1-7/16" cylinder with what appears to be a brass foresight. I put it side-by-side with my keeper for comparison. Is that a target rear sight? If so, it seems odd that there's no allowance for lateral adjustment, but I've never actually seen one. It seems designed to lift up for a better sight picture, but it also seems you have to do it "just so", otherwise you trip the barrel latch. Of note, the serial on the sight doesn't match the numbers on the pistol. The cylinder and frame have matching numbers but the grip panels don't. I'm wondering if someone took a barrel and mated it to a frame. It's odd that so much nickel would remain on the frame but there's none, nor evidence there ever was, remaining on the barrel. Also new to me is the front of the pivot. You will note on the pic that the new one has a sort of divot as opposed to my keeper. The mechanics on this pistol are excellent. Half cock, single and double action, advance, timing, and indexing are all excellent and cylinder slop is almost non existent. BTW, serial on the frame is 11451 but the serial on the sight is 20840. Any input would be most appreciated.

 

[BMur]

Excellent example!

Exmilcop,
This is an Excellent example as to why we must closely examine ALL antique firearms to determine what we are looking at.
The simple reason is because all early antique firearms lacked caliber stamps on the barrel. You can actually have a “mixed” caliber gun on your hands. Which of course is NOT SAFE.
I have seen many over the years with the seller having no clue.

First and foremost you must confirm matching numbers on all parts. It’s not just for evaluating the guns net worth. It’s also to make sure you don’t have the wrong calibers assembled together.

In this case you have a New Model 3 barrel having the last patent date of 1871 on a Double action frame.

Remember, the NM3 came in many calibers. So as an example, you could have a 38-44 barrel in front of a 44 Russian cylinder. NOT a good idea.

All large frame double action 44’s had the last patent date of 1880 with the earliest production. So that’s a give away when you see an 1871 patent on a double action frame.

Probably why this gun was so cheap. Since the early NM3 was not caliber stamped you CAN’T EYEBALL IT AND CALL IT A 44 RUSSIAN. YOU MUST SLUG THE BARREL AND MEASURE IT TO CONFIRM CALIBER!!!

Ok, now that we’ve confirmed a miss-matched assembly, parts are also worth a lot now so even with the miss-matched assembly you might have actually done really well depending upon the sales price.

Murph

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


The barrel appears to be from a New Model #3 single action based
on the patent dates on top. The "divot" is from when the extraction
was still the first type rack and pinion actuated.

Your rear sight is missing some parts.

Cheers,
Webb

 

[iby]

I learned something new today
thanks

 

[rct269]

Post #3 is smack dab on the money----"missing some parts". The parts it's missing is the entirety of the sight carrier---and the sight itself.

The latch for the target models started life the same as all the others. Then they milled a slot right down the middle----from one end to the other---and they milled a notch at the butt end for a place for the sight carrier to sit.

The sight carrier is one piece---with it's own tang---which fits in the new slot. This latch, as it sits, is a disaster waiting to happen. The disaster, if it hasn't happened already, is some poor soul will open/close (either/or) the barrel, at which time the latch tangs (now two where there used to be one---and are weakened accordingly) will bear against the barrel catch cam-----AND its VERY STOUT little spring. When that happens, the now two latch tangs which used to be one (AND A BUNCH STRONGER) will first bend, and then break----SNAP!!! (They will bend inwards---into the space where the sight carrier tang is supposed to be---but isn't.

The best fix for busted tangs is to be had at the hands of Chris Hirsch-----a WIZARD gunsmith-----IF he's still in business----and not off taking REALLY FINE pictures of wildlife---mostly our feathered friends. Google Chris Hirsch Gunsmith.

The other part of the fix is to come up with a complete sight carrier---good luck with that!!

IF/WHEN you come up with the sight carrier (only-----no sight stuff), I have a machinist's drawing of the sight stuff---the sight slide itself, the sight slide retainer, and the screw specs. Just for hell of it, the screw specs are: Size is #1. TPI is 72. O.A.L. is .125". Thread length is .085", and the head diameter is .105"---we're talking about TEENY-TINY stuff here---not something from your favorite automotive machine shop.

Best bet--also an unlikely one, is to come up with a beater gun carrying a good latch/sight assembly---good luck with THAT too!!

Ralph Tremaine

A remote possibility: George Dye (Salt Lake Collectibles---or some such) once did the impossible for me, and came up with a COMPLETE, AS NEW latch/sight assembly for the large frame top-breaks. George is no longer listed in the SWCA Roster, and I've not heard of him for a good spell---as in among the missing.

Another remote possibility is a Wanted To Buy ad in our classified section---for a complete latch/target sight assembly for the large frame top breaks. There's no telling what some of our totally around the bend lunatic fringe friends have stashed in their bottom drawer!!

 

[Exmilcop]

Exmilcop,
This is an Excellent example as to why we must closely examine ALL antique firearms to determine what we are looking at.

In this case you have a New Model 3 barrel having the last patent date of 1871 on a Double action frame.

All large frame double action 44’s had the last patent date of 1880 with the earliest production. So that’s a give away when you see an 1871 patent on a double action frame.

Probably why this gun was so cheap. Since the early NM3 was not caliber stamped you CAN’T EYEBALL IT AND CALL IT A 44 RUSSIAN. YOU MUST SLUG THE BARREL AND MEASURE IT TO CONFIRM CALIBER!!!

Ok, now that we’ve confirmed a miss-matched assembly, parts are also worth a lot now so even with the miss-matched assembly you might have actually done really well depending upon the sales price.

Murph

Murph, THANK YOU!!! As ever, you provide excellent information. Though I'm no novice to firearms, these old S&W's are a field all their own. I slugged the bore and it is indeed .44 so no fears on that score at least. As to value as a parts pistol, please bear in mind that your US pricing is considerably kinder than ours. I paid around $2140. USD for it. Having no idea of the US market I couldn't begin to guess the parts value. Any suggestions and input would be most appreciated.
P.S.: even as I was composing this, I noticed Mr. Tremaine chimed in as I hoped he would. To you as well, thank you. I've contacted the seller and I'll wait and see if he's going to be stand-up guy and offer a refund or blow me off and ghost me. Stay tuned, film at 11:00.

 

[rct269]

The complete/as new latch/sight assembly I bought from George Dye cost $200---8 years ago.

I bought it so as to create a fall-back position---just in case a broken latch (numbered to a VERY special gun) could not be repaired. The VERY special gun was a NM #3 Target (one of those chambered ONLY in 32-44 S&W or 38-44 S&W)--never mind this one was chambered in "38 WINCHESTER CTG"---as stamped right on the barrel.

The only continuing on forever bad news is our letter writing folks had NO information available to confirm the caliber. The best they had was "There are no notes in the records on this revolver--------It appears to have been a special order for one unit----------." The at least some better news is it sold during the liquidation of my collection during the last 3+ years, and fetched $6500---which is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[BMur]

Parts gun

Well if the seller did not sell it as a non matching gun? They should refund you. I have returned a few that were sold as matching but were not.

To be honest though I sometimes regret years later returning a few of them because the parts themselves were worth a lot. It’s hard to evaluate parts without in hand inspection but they often sell for more than the gun is worth assembled. That is a fact.
Seeing and recognizing that rare part in a pile of junk is spice of life for me personally. It’s a ton of fun.

The subject of collectible Parts is an entirely different avenue of collecting. Some collectors out there actually only collect gun sights and rare parts.

The one thing that I can say for certain is that parts are always in demand no matter what the market looks like and not unlike ammo, folks will pay through the nose if they need that part to complete a gun/project. Specific to your case? The 44 cal DA is extremely difficult to locate parts for so the sky is the limit, even if you get ghosted? I wouldn’t feel too bad. Lots of money in parts is what you have!

It’s the same with all collectibles that I follow. I have purchased reloading tools as an example that are missing dies/parts and later find the part that will complete the set which is always thrilling.

The risk is sometimes it takes a while to find the part or you find out later that the part you need is more expensive than a complete loading tool! However, that’s not often true. More often its a measure of success for sure.

There is risk and a learning curve with any given subject.

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

Update: the seller apologized and has offered a full refund. I will pass on the information you gentleman so kindly provided or put him on to this site so he can read for himself the information you folks have so generously given.

 

[rct269]

Update: the seller apologized and has offered a full refund. I will pass on the information you gentleman so kindly provided or put him on to this site so he can read for himself the information you folks have so generously given.

SEE!! There IS a GOD--and HE's on your side!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[teletech]

Well, now, before I gave the gun back for a refund, I'd ponder a bit.
Do you need a matching numbers gun, or will one with a interesting past possibly out-shoot a matching gun. I mean, if the price was OK, I'd be pretty excited to have a shooter that if I were to want to modify I wasn't going to be committing blaspheme against a rare artifact. I'd at least check the timing and see how it groups before letting it go, if it's magical then perhaps having a machinist make up a serviceable replacement sight is the thing to do.

 

[Exmilcop]

Well, now, before I gave the gun back for a refund, I'd ponder a bit.
Do you need a matching numbers gun, or will one with a interesting past possibly out-shoot a matching gun. I mean, if the price was OK, I'd be pretty excited to have a shooter that if I were to want to modify I wasn't going to be committing blaspheme against a rare artifact. I'd at least check the timing and see how it groups before letting it go, if it's magical then perhaps having a machinist make up a serviceable replacement sight is the thing to do.

Forgive me if this gets a bit wordy. If I were younger or had more disposable income, I'd consider parting it out or selling it "as is" to someone who works on these old S&W's. Our prices up here are considerably higher than the same items in the US. I had to auction off a high condition Frontier model, one of the most beautiful antique pistols I've handled, to a US auction house. Due to our looney left federal government, you can no longer buy, sell, or transfer a handgun in Canada, excepting antiques. Good shootable antiques have therefore risen in value up here. That Frontier model made me $2700. (cdn) for what would have been a $4500. or more had I been able to sell it domestically. I have a very nice DA model that I've accurized and is my keeper. Firearm prices up here are very much regional. I don't know if it's the same in the US. I had hoped to flip that pistol at a local gun show since, had it not been a put-together, it would be worth $3800.-$4500. locally given the condition of the bore and chambers and the fact that the action is excellent. As it is, and with the safety concerns pointed out by Mr. Tremaine, I think my best bet is to return it for the refund. There's a gentleman at the local gun shows who has a mechanically excellent DA in .44 Russian with a 5" barrel. Sadly, it's been the victim of an attempted re-nickel job that's left the finish all rippled. I'd have to see what it would cost to have the plating reversed and have it properly blued. As a project, given what the seller is asking, it would be a worthwhile refurbishment project.