Has anyone given a free float tube a try, and what were your results? I am experiencing POI issues that are rather frustrating. My rifle shoots good groups from the bench with CCI Mini Mags, but from one day to the next it's a **** shoot as to weather the rifle will be zeroed to the same POA/POI as it was previously. There also seems to be an issue going from the bench to field shooting positions. I have only connected with 1 of 5 squirrels I have shot at. Shots appear to be going high in the field. Very frustrating with a rifle that actually prints groups that are good enough for head shots on squirrels out to 50 yards.
Free Float?
- Thread starter erickg
- Start date
wolverine
Member
Afternoon erickg
Just pop your front cap out & forward & try it yourself (just 4 plastic squeeze tabs holding it in).
You can also try indexing it to the 4 positions available (that alone will move my groups a couple of inches at 50 yards)
Some seem to like the free float & others like myself find it shoots notably worse with a free float.
You might also try different tightness on the hand grip. My 15-22 moves groups ( & shots in the groups) all over depending on how much pressure is put on the hand grip & trigger area as well moves groups (& shots) around depending on how hard I pull it into the bench rest.
Plastic is very compliant & easily twisted or deformed.
Just pop your front cap out & forward & try it yourself (just 4 plastic squeeze tabs holding it in).
You can also try indexing it to the 4 positions available (that alone will move my groups a couple of inches at 50 yards)
Some seem to like the free float & others like myself find it shoots notably worse with a free float.
You might also try different tightness on the hand grip. My 15-22 moves groups ( & shots in the groups) all over depending on how much pressure is put on the hand grip & trigger area as well moves groups (& shots) around depending on how hard I pull it into the bench rest.
Plastic is very compliant & easily twisted or deformed.
ragingyeti
Member
Since the handguard is polymer, it will move with the amount of pressure applied to it. If you are shooting with irons, your front sight is on the handguard, and that will move your POI depending on pressure. If you have a red dot or scope on just the receiver, then pressure will not effect your POI since the barrel and receiver will always be in line (assuming you are currently free floating your handguard).
wolverine
Member
Afternoon ragingyeti
Maybe true on a metal lower & metal upper but that sure doesn't hold true on (my) soft plastic 15-22. Even with the scope completely mounted on the upper's rail it just doesn't take much pressure on the hand grip or pulling it into the rest to move POI even with a free floated handguard.
BillyJack2012
Member
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Are many of you operating without the plastic end cap?
Removed end cap today and noticed about a 20% increase in accuracy, which is very good because good groups were never the issue. The rifle is still very sensitive to pressure on the hand guard, groups would wander all over the targets depending on where the hand guard was resting on the bags. Still looking for anybody's input as to whether or not a free float tube or rail could be a solution.
ragingyeti
Member
If you are having trouble with the current "free float" rail and optics, then I suspect the problem is the pressure applied to the barrel nut. This means it could be loose or it could be that the polymer receiver is giving you issues. Check for the "Notable Thread Index" on the first page of this forum for barrel nut wrench info to check your barrel nut. If it is the second, then a new handguard wont help you, and there isn't much you can do to help.
tacticaledge
Member
Hmmm where have i heard this before, I agree with you 100% ragingyeti i had a few people ive met have this prob and fix it by tightening the barrel nut now have nomore probs now have great shot groups my 15-22 gets excelent groups so i still say it can be very accurrate
wolverine
Member
Morning erickg
You can easily check your barrel nut with a home made wrench or even use a strong light & look at the barrel nut to upper receiver area while someone else moves the barrel in relation to the receiver. The barrel chamber sticks through the upper receiver bushing in upper so if you have a loose barrel nut you should also be able to see movement by looking in through the bottom as you move the barrel in relation to the receiver.
My 15-22 has shown the same issues your gun currently does only mine also has grouping issues (6+MOA is pretty normal)
I first thought I had a loose barrel nut so made a wrench but it was tight. So I sent my 15-22 back for accuracy repair & S&W installed a new barrel as well as a new bolt & trigger/hammer parts. It still won't shoot a consistent tight group & as yours is doing moves the groups around depending on how it is held or pulled into the rest.
If you want to see what your are dealing with just find an old set of scope rings or a cheap scope rail height adapter then clamp that on your upper receiver picatinny rail then clamp the scope rings (or rail adapter) in a firm bench vise. Then with the upper receiver held tight by the vise just lightly move the barrel muzzle. Yep, that barrel deflection is what you are dealing with.
You can try an aluminum free float front tube (I was thinking the same way until I gave it some thought). Thing is, if the soft plastic of the upper receiver is your issue then simply adding a stiff aluminum tube at the barrel nut will just make it worse as you now have even more leverage on the soft upper receiver in the barrel attachment area.
Unless you use a front sight mounted on the forend the softer the front tube the less deflection it should be able to impart into the barrel to receiver area as you change pressure on the forend (assuming the front cap is removed)
Maybe a stiff forend tube with an under barrel support (like the 10-22 uses) might show some improvement. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try it.
You can easily check your barrel nut with a home made wrench or even use a strong light & look at the barrel nut to upper receiver area while someone else moves the barrel in relation to the receiver. The barrel chamber sticks through the upper receiver bushing in upper so if you have a loose barrel nut you should also be able to see movement by looking in through the bottom as you move the barrel in relation to the receiver.
My 15-22 has shown the same issues your gun currently does only mine also has grouping issues (6+MOA is pretty normal)
I first thought I had a loose barrel nut so made a wrench but it was tight. So I sent my 15-22 back for accuracy repair & S&W installed a new barrel as well as a new bolt & trigger/hammer parts. It still won't shoot a consistent tight group & as yours is doing moves the groups around depending on how it is held or pulled into the rest.
If you want to see what your are dealing with just find an old set of scope rings or a cheap scope rail height adapter then clamp that on your upper receiver picatinny rail then clamp the scope rings (or rail adapter) in a firm bench vise. Then with the upper receiver held tight by the vise just lightly move the barrel muzzle. Yep, that barrel deflection is what you are dealing with.
You can try an aluminum free float front tube (I was thinking the same way until I gave it some thought). Thing is, if the soft plastic of the upper receiver is your issue then simply adding a stiff aluminum tube at the barrel nut will just make it worse as you now have even more leverage on the soft upper receiver in the barrel attachment area.
Unless you use a front sight mounted on the forend the softer the front tube the less deflection it should be able to impart into the barrel to receiver area as you change pressure on the forend (assuming the front cap is removed)
Maybe a stiff forend tube with an under barrel support (like the 10-22 uses) might show some improvement. I guess the only way to know for sure is to try it.
ragingyeti
Member
I wouldn't say they are consistently coming out of the factory with loose barrel nuts, but as with any large manufacturing companies mistakes will be made occasionally. Lucky for you this is an easy thing to check on your own.
Hobie1
Member
How far away are the tree rats?
And how far up are they? (What angle are you shooting at them?)
http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ShootingUphillAndDownhill.pdf
This might be applicable. /\
And how far up are they? (What angle are you shooting at them?)
http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ShootingUphillAndDownhill.pdf
This might be applicable. /\
Last edited:
Hobie1
Member
Send it back to S & W. I owned the Performance Center version and it wouldn't group as tight as my MOE version. Smith replaced the whole upper and it shot much better. So I sold it and bought a Sporter. 
Hope you get it figured out soon.
Hobie
Hope you get it figured out soon.
Hobie
Dang thing shoots great groups that's the frustrating part, It's obviously a flaw in the design (flimsy plastic rifle) that causes the problem of WHERE it chooses to shoot those great groups from one day to the next. Smith could replace the upper 10 times over, I think you would just get more flimsy plastic problems.
Hobie1
Member
Sorry to read about your bad experiences. Like I said, send it back to S&W and let them have a crack at it. I love my MOE and it shoots consistent groups no matter what the circumstances.
Something I don't recall reading is what type of optics or sights are you using? If you're using some kind of optic device, it's not out of realm of possibility that your optic isn't holding zero.
It's strange that your POI shifts from time to time. Are there substantial temperature swings from one time until the next? I really don't believe that the polymer frame is moving so much as to create the substantial change in POI unless perhaps it is cracked internally(bad injection?).
I'm just playing devil's advocate and hope that if and when you resolve this maddening problem, you'll let us know what it is.
Regards,
Hobie
Something I don't recall reading is what type of optics or sights are you using? If you're using some kind of optic device, it's not out of realm of possibility that your optic isn't holding zero.
It's strange that your POI shifts from time to time. Are there substantial temperature swings from one time until the next? I really don't believe that the polymer frame is moving so much as to create the substantial change in POI unless perhaps it is cracked internally(bad injection?).
I'm just playing devil's advocate and hope that if and when you resolve this maddening problem, you'll let us know what it is.
Regards,
Hobie
Havetahunt
Member
This is great dialog for me. I too have been VERY frustrated with my POI changing but not willing to give up on a rifle. At first I thought it was because I did not understand the ballistics of the .22 so I tried sighting it in at different yards thinking I needed to find a “Sweet spot” that would NOT make a huge difference when shooting 40 yds and moving out to 80. Then, I thought maybe the issue was because I would take the gun completely apart and clean it after every outing so I stopped cleaning it hoping my POI would become more consistent. I’m currently looking at all the post about barrel nuts and free floating thinking this is my issue. Like erickg I thought maybe this is part of owning a ”plastic rifle”, I thought of sending it back etc. But Hobie1 may have the answer…From day one, I have NOT been impressed with the Barska 3-9x40 I put on the gun.
wolverine
Member
Morning erickg
Obviously optic quality & solid mounting is always an issue on ALL guns that shoot with optics. That is just a basic rule of random grouping.
Like you, I have used a number of (quality) optics with the same result (poor grouping & moving groups)
One thing we all have to watch for is most quality rifle optics using fixed parallax are tuned for around 100 yards to be parallax free. So when shooting at 25 or 50 yards we need a solid & REPETITIVE cheek weld as well as the same eye placement shot to shot.
If in doubt, solid rest the rifle then sight at something at 50 yards then move your head & eye placement around behind the scope to see how much parallax effects your 50 yard (or 25 yard) POA. My better Leupolds have very little parallax effect at 50 yards (seems less than 1/32" inch) but some of the cheaper optics will have more.
Obviously optic quality & solid mounting is always an issue on ALL guns that shoot with optics. That is just a basic rule of random grouping.
Like you, I have used a number of (quality) optics with the same result (poor grouping & moving groups)
One thing we all have to watch for is most quality rifle optics using fixed parallax are tuned for around 100 yards to be parallax free. So when shooting at 25 or 50 yards we need a solid & REPETITIVE cheek weld as well as the same eye placement shot to shot.
If in doubt, solid rest the rifle then sight at something at 50 yards then move your head & eye placement around behind the scope to see how much parallax effects your 50 yard (or 25 yard) POA. My better Leupolds have very little parallax effect at 50 yards (seems less than 1/32" inch) but some of the cheaper optics will have more.
I've got mine out. I noticed a slight improvement in grouping.
tacticool22
US Veteran
There is a stainless steel sleeve molded into the upper. The barrel slides into it from the back. The breech block stops the barrel from going forward any further and the barrel nut keeps the barrel from moving backwards. The end cap on the handguard has been the biggest problem. Remove it, tighten the barrel nut and accuracy should improve.
There have been no problems since changing to an aluminum free float tube.
There have been no problems since changing to an aluminum free float tube.
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This is what I've been waiting to hear.
dannybot
Member
So from what I am reading, just pulling the end cap might make the POI more consistent, or possibly better groupings? And maybe clocking it differently? That can be done with no special tools or vise holder.
What about mounting optic on upper, rather than tube? Will that be better?
What about mounting optic on upper, rather than tube? Will that be better?
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