General Robert E. Lee. A Gentleman's Gentleman.

I just wanted to thank you Gents before I forgot to do so? for giving General Lee a 5 Star rating.
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I always heard the only bad things that could be said about Robert E Lee was he received demerits while attending West Point. It's a mute point because everyone does but he received very few.


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He must have been a very humble man. In most pictures where he is in uniform he wears the rank of Colonel as shown by the three stars on his lapel. The rank insignia of a Confederate General is three stars inside a wreath with the middle star being larger than the other two.

Of course, I'm sure that any soldier in his command would know who he was if he displayed no rank at all.
 
Another thing I really admire about him, one of many) was that his personal Chef--was a black Gent by the last name of Lee. General Lee promoted him to Sergeant, made him his personal Chef--all the other Generals loved his cooking as well, and Lee made sure that his chef got paid the same wages as Sergeants got paid. Sergeant Lee, loved general Lee and made sure the rest of his life-that others knew how he felt about his General. Sergeant Lee after the war, went to College and graduated and he became a Minister who had his own Church--which was popular with both blacks and whites.
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For Sergeant Lee:
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I think it's well-accepted that Lee was one of the greatest generals. What's a bit strange about his reputation is that he fought against the USA, as did many other CSA combatants who have been honored in one way or another.

This is a bit odd. Shelby Foote providedwhat I consider to be the best explanation of this. He called it the Great Compromise.

"The Civil War, there's a great compromise, as it's called. It consists of Southerners admitting freely that it's probably best that the Union wasn't divided, and the North admits rather freely that the South fought bravely for a cause in which it believed. That is a great compromise and we live with that and that works for us. We are now able to look at the war with some coolness, which we couldn't do before now, and, incidentally, I very much doubt whether a history such as mine could have been written much before 100 years had elapsed. It took all that time for things to cool down."

Things seem to work out better when supporters of the Union as well as the Confederacy recognize the compromise. The Civil War was a terrible event and the compromise certainly made living with the aftermath easier.
 
vito said:
There is nothing at all wrong with honoring leaders of the CSA, as a reflection of the history and culture of the South, but revering them as "American" heroes is another matter. If the Army War College posted portraits of Lee and others in admiration of their leadership and soldierly abilities, that of course makes sense (if you ever have the chance to visit the US Military Academy at West Point, there are statues of some of the great generals in human history in the Board Room (I don't recall what the official name of this room is, where the Superintendent presides over the Academy leadership) but this is not acclaiming them as anything more than that, i.e., their military greatness. If the Army War College's intention is displaying portraits of generals who were heroes to this county's conflicts, then there is no place for Lee, Jackson, Longstreet or any of the others who fought against the Union.

You will not find, in a similar vein, any monuments to Benedict Arnold at West Point or in Washington, D.C. despite the fact that he was a hero early in the Revolution. Once he became a traitor to the cause, and served the British, he no longer deserved the honor of being considered an American hero.
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I suppose us southern Americans may disagree with you because we believe citizens of the Confederate States of America were just as American as citizens of the United States of America. Confederate Americans believed they were defending their homeland from outside aggressors. They may have been rebels, but they weren't traitors to their homeland.

Benedict Arnold was a traitor who was influenced by the whims of his 18 year old bride for personal gain and glory. Big difference.
 
The Civil War, a three volume set by IMHO number one authority on the Civil War of the middle to late 20th Century, Shelby Foote. He said his two favorite people associated with the American Civil War were Lincoln and Forrest.

From Memphis TN, like me. His name was always listed in the phonebook. Imagine calling him up to discuss Longstreet or Forrest, he'd answer questions you'd pose if he had time. Sadly he passed away a few years ago. If you wanted to learn about the various major players of the American Civil War that set would be my choice. I understand it takes months, years to read. Far longer than my attention span.

If you don't know who he is this may help remind you.



He was the best part of the Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War.
 
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Thank you for the reminder. Ive read books by him before and fully agree that he is most likely the best authority on the Civil War.
 
Unquestionably, Robert E. Lee and his place in the history of war is secure. His tactics have been studied and praised by many great generals that lived and fought long after his passing. I have to respectfully disagree that he was an enemy of the United States solely because he commanded the Confederate army. The Civil War or the War of Northern Aggression as it is still known in many locales today, was basically a war about states rights as set out in the Constitution of the United States. Slavery might have provided the impetus but was really peripheral to the main issue, as there were as many, if not more, slaves in the north as there were in the south at the time of the outbreak of the war. A real unbiased study of history contemporary with the times will verify this fact.

To think that this is a dated concept...states rights versus overarching federal control...is naive, as it continues to this day. Without tripping a hidden wire controlling the claymore of forbidden political discourse, suffice it to say that currently there are several states exploring the process of secession and several portions of states wanting to secede from the balance of their state, northern California being a prime example. The impetus behind these efforts remains the same after more than 150 years, the right of the individual states to govern to the best advantage of their citizens. The past does not bode well for this concept, but it is a noble one nevertheless.

Robert E. Lee was a great general and a great American and his sacrifice and those who followed him into battle is no less than any other American who has made the ultimate sacrifice to preserve and protect this great nation and the principles it was founded upon.
 
When one considers Lee's training.. He fell short...

vito said:
On a personal level General Lee was by all accounts a most honorable and respected gentleman. But don't forget he made a choice to accept the leadership of the Confederate forces after first being offered command of the Union army. His loyalty to his state of Virginia was stronger than his loyalty to the United States, despite his oath of office as a commissioned officer in which he pledged his loyalty to the United States of America, not the Confederate States of America. As such he became an enemy of this country.
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DUTY HONOR COUNTRY.... West Point

"To preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"..... oath of office

To quote Meatloaf, Two out of three ain't bad...
 
Just wanted to say that I agree with Faulkner's post above: We were all Americans then. We are all Americans now. In the Civil War, there were occasions where brothers fought against one another. That they were enemies in war does not change the fact of their brotherhood.

In my heart, I honor the heroes and the common soldiers, those who survived and those who died, from both sides in that awful war.
 
informative thread

Is it strange that Lee is seen as a symbol of what was good about the south more than anyone? Including Jefferson Davis?

And let's not forget that Jeb Stuart focused on capturing a convoy of supply wagons rather than the tactical portion of his orders. He finally showed up at the end of the second day of the battle.
 
Shelby Foote was definitely the best part of Ken Burn's "Civil War". With the cadence of his slow southern drawl he should have narrated the whole thing. I could listen to him tell stories about the civil war all day.
 
Shelby Foote was a guest on C-Span's Brian Lamb's Booknotes show several years ago. I don't know if that episode is still available but it's well worth watching if so. The topic was his Civil War trilogy but there was quite a bit about his personal life. He was an interesting, but very private individual.

I know a little about the privacy based on a trip to a tobacco shop in Memphis where he got his pipe tobacco. I'm a pipe smoker and my wife and I were visiting my daughter while she was a student at UT Pharmacy School in Memphis. For some reason I didn't take enough tobacco and went to the closest shop to get some. It was downtown (can't remember the name).

I went in the shop and couldn't find my normal blend and decided to get a few ounces of one of the house blends. Asked for the most popular and was told it was Shiloh. Originally being from about 40 miles from where the battle of Shiloh took place, I asked about the name.

The tobacconist told me it was named in honor of Shelby Foote. SF wrote a fiction (but realistic) book about the battle. The blend was mixed to meet his taste. The man told me that SF used to come in about once a month but health issues had prevented him from coming to the shop for a couple of years.

Shelby's house/condo was located on the bluffs of the MS River about a mile or so from the shop. The man said Shelby would call and he would bring the tobacco to him. Shelby always be looking out the window and I can't remember but he would either take the tobacco through the window or crack the door. The guy said he always wanted to talk with him but about all he ever got was a few words when Shelby used to go to the shop. I don't think he was much of a socializer. I enjoyed Shiloh the book more than Shiloh the pipe tobacco.

P.S. I found a link to the C-Span interview. The interview is a little over 3 hours long. I think there are short clips available.
If interested, Google Shelby Foote C-Span Interview.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Foote
 
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25elk said:
The Civil War or the War of Northern Aggression as it is still known in many locales today, was basically a war about states rights as set out in the Constitution of the United States. Slavery might have provided the impetus but was really peripheral to the main issue, as there were as many, if not more, slaves in the north as there were in the south at the time of the outbreak of the war. A real unbiased study of history contemporary with the times will verify this fact.
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You can read the states' declarations of secession. They clearly state the reason for secession is to preserve slavery. That's the state's right they were fighting to defend.

There were NOT more slaves in the north than the south. Not even close.
What makes you think this? Remember "free states"?

25elk said:
To think that this is a dated concept...states rights versus overarching federal control...is naive, as it continues to this day. ...The impetus behind these efforts remains the same after more than 150 years, the right of the individual states to govern to the best advantage of their citizens.
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The Confederate congress passed conscription acts drafting every male age 18-45 into the confederate army. Perhaps ironically, this put them at odds with some of the states, who refused to prosecute their citizens for avoiding the draft. The Confederation was not pro state's rights.

25elk said:
Robert E. Lee was a great general and a great American and his sacrifice and those who followed him into battle is no less than any other American who has made the ultimate sacrifice to preserve and protect this great nation and the principles it was founded upon.
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Well, that's the thing. Robert E. Lee chose to put loyalty to Virginia above loyalty to the nation. So although he was unarguably a great general he is not a national hero.
 
Well, I live in Florida, another state (quite a few miles from Virginia)
of the United States of America. He is my hero too. Ergo, he is a
national hero.
 
gator68 said:
Well, that's the thing. Robert E. Lee chose to put loyalty to Virginia above loyalty to the nation. So although he was unarguably a great general he is not a national hero.
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It's not really appropriate to judge 19th century actions with 21st century standards. In that day and time citizens of the United States didn't really consider themselves as "Americans" as much as they referred to themselves by their home state. They were Virginians, Mississippians, Ohioans, and Pennsylvanians.

It wasn't until after the war, and more specifically, near the Spanish American War that being an American became more commonplace.
 
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gator68 said:
You can read the states' declarations of secession. They clearly state the reason for secession is to preserve slavery. That's the state's right they were fighting to defend.

There were NOT more slaves in the north than the south. Not even close.
What makes you think this? Remember "free states"?


The Confederate congress passed conscription acts drafting every male age 18-45 into the confederate army. Perhaps ironically, this put them at odds with some of the states, who refused to prosecute their citizens for avoiding the draft. The Confederation was not pro state's rights.



Well, that's the thing. Robert E. Lee chose to put loyalty to Virginia above loyalty to the nation. So although he was unarguably a great general he is not a national hero.
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My family was dirt poor when. Lincoln called for Troops to put down the rebellion. Its amazing how that one move by some man in Washington destroyed this Country. None of my family owned slaves. But the answered Lincoln's call for troops. By joining their fellow Southerns in taking up arms to defend their homes. The Southerns were just fulfilling the prophecies of Thomas Jefferson. Every Generation needs a revolution. From time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike.

And how did the Yankees view slavery? It s kinda of funny how Lincoln only freed the Slaves in the Confederate States.

For 30 years maybe Congress fought over the issues that would start the War. And they may have kept fighting in Congress if Locoln hadnt defied the Constitution.
 
Doesn't matter...19th century action vs. 21st century ethics/ How 'bout this; General Lee was a devout Christian, an extremeley selfless man. He was a great father, a loyal and devoted husband, a scholar, a great General, loved his soldiers and was loyal to his causes to a fault. No matter the uniform, no matter the century; the world would be a better place with more men like him. As red14 posted above:

''Duty is the most sublime word in our language. Do your duty in all things.
You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less.''

''Never do a wrong thing to make a friend or to keep one.''

''I cannot trust a man to control others who cannot control himself.''
Robert E. Lee

Think hard about the totality of these tenets. I have had the first two framed and hung on my office wall for years. We would all do well to strive to live by these.
 
One would be advised caution before judging southerners as traitors, viewing the behavior today of some regarding the Constitution.

Lest we forget there were a great number of Texans who supported the CSA in hopes of the re establishment of the Republic of Texas.

In the end, the process (if I may be excused for using such a clinical term for the valiant actions and tragic deaths of so many) forged the most powerful republic in the history of mankind.
 
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Just some points for clarification.

Please read Lincolns first innaugrel speech.

The South (South Carolina) fired on Fort Sumter. As a result of this, Lincoln called for the raising of 95,000 troops for 3 months service. Their battle cry was "preserve the Union".

Once Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation, many in the North were furious, because the focus of the war changed to freeing the slaves, not about preserving the Union. Shortly after, conscription began in the North, as the it was then harder to "Rally 'round the Flag" when the cause was no longer one you could die for.

Robert E. Lee was, in my mind, a great general. He maintained the ANV through years of inept and lackadaisical supply. But, he failed to realize there was more war than just that in Virginia. Gettysburg was a great battle, but at the same time, the siege of Vicksburg was ended. A solid argument can be made that the South lost the war at Shiloh, by not pressing Grant. There's an old saying, "The South never smiled after Shiloh".

Also in my opinion, Longstreet bore the brunt of the failure at Gettysburg because he alone of the top CSA Generals at the battle, was not a Virginian.

To get a good grasp of the situation as it actually was, start reading biographies from the period. Not just the popular ones, try them all. Some will impress you, others will make your blood boil. But you'll come away with what actually happened, ( if you pair them with official records and period maps). Our accounts of historical periods get distorted with every new book published.
 
Lee worked hard after the war to heal all wounds and saw the need to educate the blacks as shown with his speech to Congress in 1866. He became President of Washington University, now Washington and Lee and was revered by every student, be they from the North or the South. Lee's full citizenship was restored by Congress and signed into law by President Ford in 1975. National Hero indeed.
 
As a proud Southerner and fan of Robert E Lee, I will say the South HAD to loose the war. As painful as that is, and as terrible as that war was, I believe slavery would have continued indefinitely had the South won. IMO that's something which Providence could not ally itself with.
I believe state's rights was the main purpose for the war, and slavery was not the direct reason, but I can't accept the argument that the issue of slavery wasn't what was driving the South.
Slavery may have died a slow death without a civil war, but as an institution it needed and deserved to die quickly, and IMO it's supporters (even the estimable Lee) could not have had God or victory on their side.
 
"Traitor" is not the right term in my opinion. The Confederate states seceded primarily because they feared the institution of slavery was endanger of eventually being abolished with the expansion of new territories being brought in as free states and some northern states refusing to follow the Fugitive Act. The Constitution permitted slavery so the first southern states to break with the Union were doing so because they felt the Constitution was being broken. Keep in mind the Constitution could be amended which it eventually was.

It's easy to see why these first states broke. Slavery was the institution upon which the southern economy was based. Heck, over half over SC's population (57%) were slaves in 1860 and nearly half in several other states. These first states to secede Articles of Succession make it clear the primary reason was the lose in property rights feared by abolition. The importance of slavery to the southern economy was simply too important to ignore.

The states that seceded formed another country, the CFA. They elected a President, formed a Constitution, and raised an Army. From their perspective they didn't betray the USA, they just left it. I guess some could call them traitors but I don't think that's a terribly accurate description of what actually took place.

1860 Census Results
 
I don't think, with maybe one or two exceptions, that any of those that seceded "betrayed" their country. Most openly resigned from the Federal Military, and openly accepted military service with the Confederacy. Lee did not betray his country, but went where his land and his people were. To call him, and others like him, traitors is revising the history of the Civil War. Although, contemporary authors, were ravenous to both sides. There were many who labeled him a traitor at the time of the war, and many who called for his execution at it's end. Some members of Congress actually were planning a resolution calling for his, Davis, Breckenridge and others execution. This was stopped by Grant, who openly opposed it and made it clear he would not allow it. (arguing from a position in front of 500,000 troops is an enviable stand)

Some in the South were traitors, but very, very few. Lee, was not.
 
sheepdawg said:
Lee's full citizenship was restored by Congress and signed into law by President Ford in 1975.
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Only 110 years late...

That was one of many things that could have been remedied after the war to reduce the chaos and pain that followed. Lee, and Lincoln had he lived, would have shared a desire for national healing with as little recrimination as possible.

Terrible times for our riven country, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 
There is an excellent website called: Black Confederates. Its excellent info. One thing I always knew, was many served in the Confederate Military. The thing that shocked me the most--were the huge numbers who did so. According to that site--100,000 served in the Confederate Military--many because they didnt like the idea of some from across the Country-trying to tell them how to live--as well as didnt like the idea of uninvited "guests" coming on their land.

Also--this is excellent viewing: This Gentleman has 100% of my respect:
http://youtu.be/o8hPo6mYnks
http://youtu.be/AYzAqHD1gHc
Ill not post this one because of lots of bad language but--look on youtube for: Kevin Craft-who is a comedian and his take on Southern Pride.
The meaning of the St. Andrews flag (or) the Battle Flag:
http://youtu.be/YF-QIJyLhKQ
From the album: Southern Soldier as done by the 2nd South Carolina String Band:
http://youtu.be/D3IJ05QntXQ
 
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I believe Lee actually signed the amnesty note that was required in repatriotation but was never granted citizenship for mysterious reasons. Some say the note was lost or kept as a souvenir by a government clerk. I only used the 1975 law as further proof that Lee, as determined by Congress and signed by the President is not considered a traitor by The United States of America, thus, officially, a national hero.
 
Don't overlook Lee's accomplishments post-war. He did a lot to reconcile the defeat, repeatedly urging the south to re-join the union without rancor and for all to be good citizens.

As president of Washington College he continued his leadership role and influenced many young men to pursue good citizenship.

Here is a scan of one of my great-grandfather's report cards. February 8, 1868. Signed by General Lee.

O.A._Stephenson_Report_Card.jpg


Curl
 
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