reerc
Member
Given the large number of people being laid off, and likely the small number of people to do they laying off, how else would any of you propose to do it?
GM lay-offs from Hell!
- Thread starter marine2541
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oldRoger
US Veteran
reerc
Exactly, in my experience, it’s not one or two people from a department leaving, it’s the whole department.
You have to talk to each individual, each has his own situation, severance, vacation time due, etc. However its done, waiting for your turn is like waiting for the firing squad. We always tried to send the person directly from the interview to Personnel so that they didn’t have to go back to the department until all been covered.
I can tell you its really tough being the last guy out and turning the lights off behind you.
Exactly, in my experience, it’s not one or two people from a department leaving, it’s the whole department.
You have to talk to each individual, each has his own situation, severance, vacation time due, etc. However its done, waiting for your turn is like waiting for the firing squad. We always tried to send the person directly from the interview to Personnel so that they didn’t have to go back to the department until all been covered.
I can tell you its really tough being the last guy out and turning the lights off behind you.
venomballistics
Member
When it comes down to having to turn loose a workforce in any large scale as is the case here, there just is no graceful way to do it.
They could send in someone dressed in a clown suit riding a psychedelic segway scooter to play Russian roulette with a squirt gun and it would gain the same result as the current GM "execution chamber" in use.
They could send in someone dressed in a clown suit riding a psychedelic segway scooter to play Russian roulette with a squirt gun and it would gain the same result as the current GM "execution chamber" in use.
ambassador
Member
It is a shame what is happening at GM,but both parties are responsable for this outcome.Labor was too greedy in asking so much of management.Management was too greedy looking to make peak sales,and then looking to beat that sales figure the following sales period.This is the result of poor management.They knew from the onset they could never support so many retirees for such a long period of time.Now that we are in a global economy most people don't give a dam whose cars they buy,or what union workers get laid off.Speaking as a person who was in a union for 40 plus years you all should have seen this coming and saved something for the rainy days ahead good luck and best wishes for the future.
Wayne02
Member
Very true, it is a difficult situation to be sure. We did the conference room deal when having to do layoffs, but we never told people to sit at their desk and wait like that, and there were no global announcements that X number of people were going to be laid off beforehand.
All of use had a script to follow and we used two managers or supervisors as the escorts. He/She would go find the employee and bring them up to the conference room where the deed was done. Then they would escort the employee to their desk/workstation so they could retrieve their things before heading out the door. We never did the paper on the conference room windows, though in retrospect it might have been a good idea. We started at 7am and were not done until noon, and of course word travels fast once the ball is rolling.
Wayne02
Member
I recently heard about a local layoff where some sort of group layoff "process" was used. There had been the usual rumors that "some" people may need to be let go.
There were 134 people at this company and they took 34 people and put them in one room and the 100 in another room. The gentleman that was relaying this story was one of the 100 and he said the general feeling in his room was one of relief (for not being let go) and sadness for their coworkers in the other room...
Yep, you guessed it, the company laid off the 100 people in his room and retained the 34 from the other.
There were 134 people at this company and they took 34 people and put them in one room and the 100 in another room. The gentleman that was relaying this story was one of the 100 and he said the general feeling in his room was one of relief (for not being let go) and sadness for their coworkers in the other room...
Yep, you guessed it, the company laid off the 100 people in his room and retained the 34 from the other.
oldRoger
US Veteran
I hope I am not going to initiate a thread drift, but back in the 60s when most of the UAW contract was set in stone, the situation didn’t look the same. The big three were expanding in this country and abroad. There were many working to support each retiree, the good times were rolling. Congress was holding hearings to break up GM by making Chevrolet a stand-alone.
By the time it was clear to many that big three were in deep trouble labor cost wise, changing the contract was next to impossible. You would have had to convince the UAW that, 30 years and out, the jobs bank, sub benefits, and many work rules had to be turned back.
Actually many are not convinced yet.
The same thing is happening in many cities and counties, that is unsustainable retirement benefits are being offered. The only way they could be sustained is with population and tax growth, unlikely in most cities.
By the time it was clear to many that big three were in deep trouble labor cost wise, changing the contract was next to impossible. You would have had to convince the UAW that, 30 years and out, the jobs bank, sub benefits, and many work rules had to be turned back.
Actually many are not convinced yet.
The same thing is happening in many cities and counties, that is unsustainable retirement benefits are being offered. The only way they could be sustained is with population and tax growth, unlikely in most cities.
tomf52
Member
My daughter's godfather, a VP at GM, got the axe last week.
HOUSTON RICK
Member
The only way to avoid layoffs and being mismanaged by idiots is to start your own company. I have some pity for the people at GM losing their jobs, but the writing has been on the wall for ages and anyone too stupid to read it and prepare accordingly shares in the making of their predicament. Before anyone points figures at the UAW for being greedy, the union took a lot less than the Robber Barons who ran the company to its current state. As of last month the key salary employees were still getting free cars under the guise of being "Test Cars".
oldRoger
US Veteran
As a benefit the test cars didn’t amount to much, you drove one for about six months or until you hit a certain mileage, and then got another. The car became one of the “executive driven” cars the dealers give people a deal on. The IRS made GM figure an imputed value for the benefit which you had to pay taxes on.
I think the original idea was that people needed to see GM managers driving GM cars, always a problem with people like John Delorean.
I think the original idea was that people needed to see GM managers driving GM cars, always a problem with people like John Delorean.
rburg
Member
Its interesting to observe that auto workers are the very highest paid manual laborers. We've been given average compensation costs in total, which includes retirement costs, but even their take home pay is very high. The problem is many if not most lived at their take home pay level. There was no reason to save or provide for themselves because the pension would take care of that. It was spending like a sailor on shore leave. Of course some did save and are better off today.
My own father was a product of the great depression. He was one of the savers, as was my grandfather. Still, my mother has been retired for 36 years and counting. My dad only worked for GM for maybe 26 years. I have trouble believing they adequately prepared and funded the retirement expecting someone to collect for nearly one and a half times as long as they worked.
Back in the 1950s and 1960s, life expectancy was much lower. GM, and the actuaries who projected lifetimes probably assumed a lifespan in the 65 to 75 year range. Now we have covered spouses living much longer.
And just like the workers who were spending every paycheck each week, so too were the companies following suit, underfunding their obligations. Its a sad story, but eventually all the schemes have the odds catch up with them. Just like gambling too long, eventually you or they lose. We're at that point now. There's a payback coming. And we're all going to contribute to the pool through higher taxes for a long time to come.
My own father was a product of the great depression. He was one of the savers, as was my grandfather. Still, my mother has been retired for 36 years and counting. My dad only worked for GM for maybe 26 years. I have trouble believing they adequately prepared and funded the retirement expecting someone to collect for nearly one and a half times as long as they worked.
Back in the 1950s and 1960s, life expectancy was much lower. GM, and the actuaries who projected lifetimes probably assumed a lifespan in the 65 to 75 year range. Now we have covered spouses living much longer.
And just like the workers who were spending every paycheck each week, so too were the companies following suit, underfunding their obligations. Its a sad story, but eventually all the schemes have the odds catch up with them. Just like gambling too long, eventually you or they lose. We're at that point now. There's a payback coming. And we're all going to contribute to the pool through higher taxes for a long time to come.
OP
marine2541
Member
I have one question: What is the government's resonsibility for the auto companies failure? All of their medeling and regulations certainly didn't help matters. Everyone seems to pass over the responsibility of congress in the banking failures as well.
2000Z-71
Member
Not good. I don't think that there really is a good way to handle these things. I watched one firm that I was with reduce down form a staff of 102 to 36 in an 18 month period.
When layoffs came around everyone knew. On Friday afternoons, there would be several laid off at a time. One by one they would be called up to the main conference room, given the news, and then return to their desks and start cleaning them out. It was emotionally draining watching co-workers go through it and wondering if you would be next.
The principal I was working for had the decency to pull me aside and tell me in advance that I would be losing some of my team. I quietly gathered up my remaining team, took them to the bar across the street and told them what was happening and who was going. I just didn't want them to sit there all afternoon and wonder if they would be next.
Later there was another firm I was with where all at once the ops director and HR admin would show up at a desk with an empty box. The person would be told right then and there, given the box, locked out of their computer by IT, informed they had 15 minutes to pack and then were escorted from the building.
In times past, layoffs in architecture were no big deal. Firms really are feast and famine; staff up for a big project and lay-off at the end of the project. Usually one could have a job within days after being laid off. Now it's very scary, I've been laid off fo close to 5 months now with zero prospects on the horizon.
When layoffs came around everyone knew. On Friday afternoons, there would be several laid off at a time. One by one they would be called up to the main conference room, given the news, and then return to their desks and start cleaning them out. It was emotionally draining watching co-workers go through it and wondering if you would be next.
The principal I was working for had the decency to pull me aside and tell me in advance that I would be losing some of my team. I quietly gathered up my remaining team, took them to the bar across the street and told them what was happening and who was going. I just didn't want them to sit there all afternoon and wonder if they would be next.
Later there was another firm I was with where all at once the ops director and HR admin would show up at a desk with an empty box. The person would be told right then and there, given the box, locked out of their computer by IT, informed they had 15 minutes to pack and then were escorted from the building.
In times past, layoffs in architecture were no big deal. Firms really are feast and famine; staff up for a big project and lay-off at the end of the project. Usually one could have a job within days after being laid off. Now it's very scary, I've been laid off fo close to 5 months now with zero prospects on the horizon.
oldRoger
US Veteran
As Dick Burg says; actuarial expectancies have changed over the years, people now live much longer. Initially auto workers did not get pensions at retirement until they reached retirement age, with the 30 years and out, pensions (and a very expensive health care program) are expected as young as 48. The initial modest pension amounts have increased over the years as well. This is very similar to the problems faced by our Social Security Program.
In addition, and perhaps the largest problem, the number of those working has declined in proportion to retirees, until one worker must now support about ten retirees at GM. (See also our Social Security Program.)
So what has happened and is still happening is that an ever increasing amount of money must be found somewhere to fund retiree costs.
Since as Dick also pointed out UAW autoworkers also are the very highest paid large group of hourly workers in the world, with very expensive contractual work rules in addition, competition (Honda, Toyota, etc.) does not, and has not for may years, permitted pricing cars and trucks high enough to cover the ever growing labor and retiree costs.
This downward spiral has been obvious since the mid-eighties; a solution has yet to be devised. What has happened is that the companies continue to transfer wealth, first their own capital, now the taxpayers, to the retirees.
Has the government interfered with and made this process worse, you bet! Government interference however is as they say, beyond the scope of this thread.
In addition, and perhaps the largest problem, the number of those working has declined in proportion to retirees, until one worker must now support about ten retirees at GM. (See also our Social Security Program.)
So what has happened and is still happening is that an ever increasing amount of money must be found somewhere to fund retiree costs.
Since as Dick also pointed out UAW autoworkers also are the very highest paid large group of hourly workers in the world, with very expensive contractual work rules in addition, competition (Honda, Toyota, etc.) does not, and has not for may years, permitted pricing cars and trucks high enough to cover the ever growing labor and retiree costs.
This downward spiral has been obvious since the mid-eighties; a solution has yet to be devised. What has happened is that the companies continue to transfer wealth, first their own capital, now the taxpayers, to the retirees.
Has the government interfered with and made this process worse, you bet! Government interference however is as they say, beyond the scope of this thread.
bk43
Member
There is no solution. Years ago the US was a national economy, the companies gave the UAW what they wanted and raised prices to pay for it. Now we are playing in a global economy and must compete all over the world with companies that do not have the union contracts and legacy costs Detroit does. The US makers are just not competitive and are doomed. The sooner we let them fail the easier and less expensive it will be for all of us. Sadly, Washington will probably see that it gets dragged out and is more painful for everybody in the end. Got to keep that union base happy ya' know.
Back on topic, I have been through what the OP's friend is going through from both sides. I don't think there's a good way to do it. Although some ways are better than others, none are any fun. Hope she comes out of it OK.
Bob
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I have all the sympathy in the world. I am 59 years old. I left a relatively secure job to go work for the government. It turns out I was number 41 in a department with 40 slots. They screwed with me for 3 months trying to get me to quit. I would not so they trumped up an excuse to fire me. They even said that they thought I was "too old" for the job(911 operator)even though I have 25 years expereince. I am probably going to sue them for age discrimination and hostile work environment( a female supervisor threatened to slap me because I did something she did not like and then later on slapped another worker for doing something.)
I wish the GM workers the best but am more concerned about myself right now,
I wish the GM workers the best but am more concerned about myself right now,
reerc
Member
Get a lawyer.
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