Good grief ! My sights are off !

[Canyon Man]

Put 400 rounds thru my .40 2.0 compact, and my .40 2.0 five inch pistol. At about 12 yards, I'm shooting 3 to 5 inches left...about 3 in the five incer, and 5 in the compact. Why yes, I'm glad you asked...after frustration at the range, I come home and notice the rear sights on both pistols are placed too far left...I haven't checked my 9mm 2.0 rear sights yet, but am assuming they will be off too. I had the same thing on a Glock 19 about 8 months ago. And it peeves me because I went thru so much ammo kicking myself with frustration. I grabbed my Glock 23 today, and was 3 bulls eyes and within an inch on the rest of 12 rounds fired from it. I have spent about an hour researching why I'm shooting low. I've read Smith zeros their pistols for 25 yards, thus shooting low at closer ranges. I don't know if this is true, but I found a good bit of ppl reporting they are shooting the M&P pistols low, while shooting their XD's and Glocks with no problems. So before I can go out with the pistols again I must first move my rear sights...and thank you for asking, no I don't have a rear sight pusher...but luckily I know a couple places near me that can do it for me. I will try shooting out to 25 yards next time to see where the point of impact is at that range. Good grief I'm mad at myself for not checking the sights on my pistol before I even started shooting them. I've been shooting for like 30 years, and I've never had a pistol with the sights not centered...now I have 3 in less than a year...4 if the 9mm 2.0 compact has the same issue. Call me crazy, but quality control these days seems to be utilizing cheap labor. So I've got my shooting left thing figured out. The shooting low I'm still working on. Love these pistols tho, just frustrated I didn't have the confidence in my shooting ability to check the rear sight alignment immediately in the field upon consistently shooting left. But I typically will pull a little left sometimes if I'm not focusing well...I feel like I've wasted 400 rounds of ammo. Never again will I ever buy a pistol without scrutinizing the sights prior to shooting it for the first time. Shame on me for not checking them. Upon the end of the shooting session today I seemed to be figuring out where to hold for the north and south bullet placement...but gees. Perhaps I'll inform Smith over the poor placement of the rear sights, and offer to work on their rear sight assembly line ha ! I guess at the end of the day, I'm glad the rear sights are off center. That's easier to fix than a shooter's error problem.

 

[MN2944]

While a grossly misaligned sight could be a sign of hasty assembly, I've never assumed factory sight placement to be spot on. For me, final sight adjustment is just part of the break in process. After a few hundred rounds, parts settle in and my familiarity builds. That's the time to give the sight a few taps to get it right where I want it. Generally, an inch or two of adjustment at 10 yards takes little more than a pencil line width of adjustment. It's not much.

 

[Canyon Man]

Thanks MN2944. I believe you are absolutely correct. I have found needing sight alignment on rifles before, but the pistol thing really caught me off guard. I don't know why it took me by surprise so much. I'm wondering if I have just been lucky regarding my pistol sights in the past, and have been spoiled. But the sights on the compact are too far off not to be noticed by quality control. On the five inch pistol, it's not as noticeable, but indeed not centered by enough to notice when shooting. When I found this on a Glock a few months back, they too were off center enough to easily catch. And at the end of the day, my frustration is placed upon my own shoulders even more than on the manufacturer. I should *******g know better ! I examined everything quite well, and didn't notice the sights ! I have to chalk this up to shooter error even more than the manufacturer's. And I mean this whole heartedly - Shame on ME ! I've shot these pistols like three times already. Not a whole lot, more of function checking really, seeing where the brass was being ejected and more worried about reliability. I did notice I was missing the rocks and steel more than I thought I should, but thought it was just me. I had been shooting at whatever I deemed a target at ranges of mostly around 30 yards out in the desert. You know, just funnin' around...one handed and some quicker type shooting. My focus was mainly on erratic ejection on the five inch pistol. To all those concerned regarding THAT issue, I quickly replaced the loaded chamber indicator (LCI) out to the NO profile LCI by Apex. My casings now all eject strongly and in the same place. Smith's loaded chamber indicator touches the back of the bullet casing on the five inch model, which most definitely effected the pistol's ejection pattern. Not enough to really be concerned about, but I was getting occasional brass back to the face. I highly recommend Apex's NO profile LCI. I do however wonder if that voids my warranty. Either way, that remedied my ejection concern. I'll adjust the sights now, and should be ready to rock with the pistols. I think I'll solve my shooting low problem by the next outing too. Rocks and steel plates are fun to shoot at, but paper is the best way to improve accuracy IMHO.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I've had a fair number of guns, particularly S&W fixed-sight revolvers, whose sights were off. I generally couldn't do much about it, either. I finally wised up and started buying fixed-sight revolvers used from my LGS, who allowed me to test-fire before buying.

I am no longer surprised when guns shoot to POA, but I am CERTAINLY not surprised when they don't.

 

[FloridaS&W]

I think my mid-sized M&P was a little off from the factory (down and left), but my Shield 45 was perfect out of the box. I had others shoot my mid-size and they had no problem, so I suspected it could be my eyes. I had the sights adjusted slightly. I also switched to using my left hand when shooting the mid-size M&P — this eliminated the low-left and made a huge difference in accuracy. Nowadays I always try to practice both left and right hand shooting, and I think this has helped me a lot.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

My 9mm Shield was shooting to the right when I got it. So the front sight had to be moved to the right(manual says don't touch rear sight). They must have installed the sight with a hydraulic press. A high $$ sight pusher wouldn't budge it. Finally after Kroil-heat- a steel flat punch and a hammer it moved. Now it shots to POA.

 

[Canyon Man]

I've heard some report they could move their rear sight easily, and others have had a hard time moving them. I don't even have a vice, so a gunsmith will be relegated this task. I'm still in wonder about the shooting low for now. I read a post where someone raised their rear sights. I love the M&P pistols. I will do what it takes. For the moment, the Glock 23 will remain in my hoster for my EDC, but I'm anxious to get this whole sight picture thing taken care of so I can start carrying the M&P. But I am certainly on that journey.

 

[Execpro]

First thing I do with a new pistol or revolver is shoot off a sandbag or rest to check the sight alignment. Had to make a few sight adjustments over fifty years.

My Shield 9mm was shooting 2" to the left at 7 yards when I got it. Had a gunsmith put in an APEX Carry/Duty kit and had him adjust the sights while he was at it.

Just got a fixed sight revolver and it shoots 2 1/2" to the left at 7 yards (first time ever had one do that).Back to the factory it goes! Have to agree, don't make them like they used too.

Be SAFE and shoot often!

 

[S&W Rover]

I'll throw in a plug for buying a good sight pusher, for lots of reasons. Making adjustments, and replacing sights.

Using a hammer and a punch is just not a good way to make adjustments or to remove/install sights!

MGW (Maryland Gun Works) used to make a sight pusher just for M&Ps that cost around $125 and was excellent. Now they sell a more expensive Universal one for just under $300, and a compact Universal one that will work on most guns for $190. (I don't know if it works with M&P's, but presume it does). NCStar (Chinese) makes an inexpensive one that is by no means as good but, for those on a budget, is workable.

So if the OP needs to adjust the sights, then my recommendation is to get a good sight pusher and the job is easy.

 

[Canyon Man]

Funny you bring up simply buying a sight pusher S&W Rover. I just popped on the computer to take as look at them. Thought I'd check on this thread before I started googling for sight pushers. I'm also glad you gave me the name of Maryland Gun Works. I had to take a double look, as I've made purchases from a place called Midwest Gun Works before - also called MGW in my parts lol. I think you're correct too, a sight pusher would be better than a mallet for sure. I have plans of night sights on more than one pistol, and the sight pusher may pay for itself in the long run. Not to mention, it's always good to be able to do as much of your own work as you can. Truth is though, I don't even know what a sight pusher looks like lol. I'll be stepping into new territory, but this is hardly rocket science. Thanks everyone for chiming in with advice and past experiences. I appreciate all the input. : )

 

[martybee]

My 9mm Shield was shooting to the right when I got it. So the front sight had to be moved to the right(manual says don't touch rear sight). They must have installed the sight with a hydraulic press. A high $$ sight pusher wouldn't budge it. Finally after Kroil-heat- a steel flat punch and a hammer it moved. Now it shots to POA.

I have a Shield .45. Sights were off on it. Adjusted the front sight using a brass punch, and a medium heavy (16 oz.) ball peen Hammer. I have a good heavy weight 5" bench vice which is quite sturdy so moving the very tight dove-tailed front sight was no problem!
I take the Shield .45 to the local indoor range almost weekly and generally shoot between 60-80 rds. Gun is one year old and I have shot over 1,700 rds through it! I do pretty good at 10 yds. but still not good enough to meet the "Rastoff Challenge", but I am immproving. These tired old eyes and limbs make it challenge just to shoot the .45 Shield. (What a sweet piece)!

 

[Muss Muggins]

Did you let somebody else shoot it?

 

[martybee]

Did you let somebody else shoot it?

Most Definitely. R.O. and also several learned range members. POA & POI are the same at 10 yrds. if I do my part.

 

[BE Mike]

Wow, 3"-5" off at that close of range, would probably put you completely off the target at 25 yds.! As I have aged, I see the sights a little differently. I do seem to shoot plastic pistols to the left if I use a less than very firm grip, too. If you actually see that the sights are noticeably to left of center, it seems like the factory goofed.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I was referring to the OP, but I think it's good advice for anyone, especially if you have the same issue with several pistols. Kinda like your third divorce. At some point, you have to entertain the idea that it might be you . . .

Most Definitely. R.O. and also several learned range members. POA & POI are the same at 10 yrds. if I do my part.

 

[Canyon Man]

Oh the sights were definitely off...way off to the left on my .40 compact, and not as much on the five inch pistol. I took the compact to my gun smith. He chuckled at how far off they were. I bought a sight pusher from a local gun store, and moved the sights on the five inch pistol myself last night. I checked my other 2.0 - the 9mm compact, and those sights were fine. I figured I'd go ahead and buy the sight pusher because at some point I'm going to want to clean the plunger area...The sights were noticeably off. It's a huge shame on me for not noticing before shooting for accuracy. I shot about a two to three inch group with my G23 that same day. The real reason for my shooting session was to make sure my Gen 4 G23 would shoot reliably with a light attached. After confirming it did, and I was shooting so far off with the M&P's, most of the rounds went to shooting those two pistols. What I will say is shooter error I believe, is my shooting low. I normally shoot like once every six weeks or so, but will be back out again this weekend sending rounds down range. My Glock shoots with a six oclock hold, and I like that sight picture. I was covering the target with my M&P's, and still shooting low. I seemed to be doing better regarding north and south point of aim as I expended my ammo. But the shooting low stumped me. I thought I was holding correctly. But I'm not going to be bold enough to say it's the pistols. I will shoot more this weekend and report back. I'm certain my east to west point of impact will be fine. Now it's the hold and working on the point of impact north and south. Like many right handed shooters, if I'm not careful, I will shoot slightly to the left of bulls eye sometimes. I also have longer type fingers, and the trigger break is a little firther back than is comfortable for me on the M&P's. But Apex triggers are on the list of to gets to improve that trigger reach for me. New to shooting the M&P pistols, trigger reach, sights off to the left...go easy on me guys lol. I'm trying over here lol. I read where Smith and Wesson zeros their 2.0's at 25 yards, and it's normal to shoot low at 7 yards. I really don't know if that is true - I just read it and can't remember where among all the googling I did. I was shooting at about 12 yards though - 12 paces out mostly. I'm not going to worry about it or over think it from one accuracy outing. I will shoot again this weekend and will most likely figure the proper sight placement easily I'm assuming. As far as my shooting skills go, I wouldn't be able to hang with competition shooters, but I'm not a bad shot either. My current phone is like five years old, and no longer will send pics to my computer. My office is supplying me a work phone I hope to acquire this week. They won't mind me using it to photograph my targets either - My boss is an AOK guy and likes shooting too. If possible, I'll post pics of my resulting targets. Any input on how low, if any I should see shot placement on paper at twelve yards would be appreciated. I'm going with the assumption I should be covering the bulls eye with the front sight dot. Thanks everyone !

EDIT: Forgot to answer the question - No I didn't have anyone else shoot the pistols. I was shooting solo. If one of my friends is free to go shooting this weekend, I'll have someone else shoot it too. That's definitely a good measuring stick when looking for shooter error. : )

 

[MichiganScott]

If your pistol is zero'd at 25 yards, your impact will be less than .25" low at 7 yards. You will have to find another reason for shooting low.

 

[Canyon Man]

I agree with you MichiganScott. I don't know the math on it, but I don't think I should be shooting as low as I was. I must at this moment, blame it on myself. It's funny how I don't shoot low with any other pistols, but I am the first to admit, the overwhelming most likely cause is shooter error. I've seen a few others post regarding shooting the M&P low. I am guessing I'm just not holding sight picture properly. Imagine my concern though. I keep shooting low, yet I'm grouping very well with the Glock 23. I'm assuming I'm just use to the Glock, but I also have an FNS long slide. That pistol has the so called "combat sights". Sometimes on my first few rounds firing that pistol I'll shoot it low, but it just takes a few rounds to get it where I want. So while I'm betting it's shooter error, I'm hoping it's not a pistol that just isn't well suited for me. The only thing uncomfortable about the pistol is where the trigger breaks at. That being said, I can adjust to anything I like to think. I just got to do a couple of dry fires with my buddies M&P that he just put the Apex in - and OMG I love that trigger reach. Assuming I do better shooting the M&P's this weekend, I'll soon be installing the Apex triggers on mine. While it may help my accuracy a little bit, nothing as drastic as to how low I was shooting. I don't hate the stock trigger, but the reach on the Apex feels much more natural of a fit to me. I'll bench rest shoot it this weekend too. I'll figure it out. But I am not saying any aftermarket trigger is going to fix what's wrong with my aim. That is something I just have to practice through. I'll repost this weekend after shooting. I hope you all stay tuned to this thread for it. Wish me luck !

 

[Rastoff]

It's amazing how many new guns have sights off from the factory. It's even more amazing how many people can adjust them at home while not shooting.

 

[Canyon Man]

I have them as dead center as I can tell by looking at them. I don't have calipers to measure them, but if they are not perfect, I don't think I'll be able to notice. They are centered. I know it's a good idea to do the final adjustments in the field while shooting. Gun smiths put sights on and center them without shooting. They are probably using calipers to measure too though. I'm new to this forum, and regardless of that, I always try to remain polite. All I can tell you is I know how to shoot. This pistol IS shooting low. Is it me ? Honestly, I think I'll have to order a lower front sight and or higher rear sights. I've been shooting for 30 years. I'm not an idiot. I've never....EVER...shot this low before. I've never had to order special sights. I'm hoping if I indeed need they are sold with night sights...or affordable enough to have tritium put in. I normally shoot steel targets. I like shooting steel. I don't have to change out targets, and I can have fun playing run n gun in the desert. I shoot one handed, shoot while breathing heavy, and will admit - I need more practice shooting left handed. But I can shoot good enough to feel alarmed when I shoot this low. It is not unjustified. I've never had any accuracy problems with any pistols - or rifles I've ever shot before. This is new to me, which is why I'm here on this forum - looking for others who may have experienced what I have with the M&P series. I'm finding all kind of stuff on google, ppl just like me, shooting the M&P low. I've read threads where everyone called them simply a bad shot to paraphrase. Then they respond as I am - saying come on man - I know how to shoot. It seems Dawson Precision has been the answer on a few occasions. I just want to make sure it's not a new platform and I'm indeed not issue. I can't go out and buy precision sights or sell the gun without bench rest shooting and making doubly sure it's not me. Nothing wrong with doing your own gunsmithing. I personally believe you should know how to assemble and disassemble your weapons. I could tell you gun smith stories...marks on the gun, poor workmanship, losing the old parts...if you want something done right old saying ya know. Even if I find my pistol shoots fine and it was me, I may still look into trying to move the point of impact to the 6 o'clock hold. If I didn't simply like the M&P line so much I'd just stick with my Glocks and FNS. I'm really trying to make these pistols work for me. And for the record, I own a couple of 9mm's - and yes I can shoot them a little faster - just like anyone, but I'm one of those die hard sinning .40 caliber fans. I feel pretty well protected with the plus p gold dots and HST's in 9mm - but I do still prefer the .40. I've tried hard to jump on the 9mm band wagon - I just have a comfort zone with the .40, and I like it.