Gun forensics Q: When a SW 645 fails to feed due to limp wristing, will hammer cock?

[4330Inroute]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

Yes, but what color was his dog?

 

[fredflintstone]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

Brilliant, Holmes!

 

[fredflintstone]

Sounds like Hunter S Thompsons suicide. IIRC his 645 he used to shoot himself was found somewhat as you describe. Rounds in the mag, empty chamber. But I seem to recall that the hammer was at rest against the frame. No loose round was present around the body, which I would expect to find if there had been a misfeed after the initial shot. I would also expect to see the hammer cocked too. But I'm pretty sure it was not.

As a 645 owner shooter, gun enthusiast and 20 years on the job working robbery/homicide, I've never been able to figure out how that gun wound up in that condition after firing one shot.

IIRC......and its been some time.......so I may not......there were many questions at the time, about the investigation into his death and how it was handled. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

BTW, the 645 has a magazine safety. AFAIK it was intact in the late Hunter Thompsons 645. So if the magazine was ajar, or not locked into the gun, the gun would not have fired.

The hammer was cocked. How could the hammer cock but the round not load? Doesn't it happen at about the same time? Yes, it seems a loose round should be laying around somewhere. Or stovepiped.

 

[willy]

Interesting,, so I checked it out .
4566
TEST (A)
(1) Load 1 live round and one empty case on top. chamber empty case

(2) Pull slide back manually until empty case is ejected.

(3) Release slide.

Fact= If slide travels rearward far enough that empty case is ejected. slide will pick up next round from magazine.


test (B)
4566

(1) COCK PISTOL

(2) push magazine release ,ejecting magazine

(3)insert magazine until you hear first click (this is where the gun will fire without the magazine fully seated in pistol.)

(4) pull trigger,, hammer falls

(5) pull magazine out without pressing mag release.

conclusion= bad police work.
Magazine was not fully set in gun.
Police did not notice it.
Magazine release was more than likely pushed by the police then magazine was manually withdrawn by hand, when if fully seated it would have ejected fully with spring force alone with no need of manually pulling it out by hand.

So the victim could have hit the mag release while having gun cupped in both hands preventing magazine from falling clear of pistol,but instead stay inserted just enough to still fire pistol but not in far enough to strip the next round when slide comes into battery.
This could happen because of the design of the pistol. The pistol was not designed to be pointed at shooters own head!


Will hammer cock if slide does not cycle completely?

answer =YES The hammer fully cocks before the fired case is even half way extracted from chamber.

case closed!

 

[Doug M.]

IIRC, if the trigger is on its way back when the mag release is hit, there is a point at which the trigger will continue its travel and the mag safety will not keep the pistol from firing. It is possible that first officer on scene made the gun safe in some manner that is more or less reflex and did not notice or document the relatively nuanced differences that could explain the circumstances that cause your question. Where did the empty from firing end up?

BTW - the work for a murderer to get the pistol to empty chamber with hammer back status seems kind of silly and excessive. Leaving the pistol as is would have made much more sense than fiddling with it.

 

[shouldazagged]

Yes, but what color was his dog?

Baskerville brown.

 

[fredflintstone]

Interesting,, so I checked it out .
4566
TEST (A)
(1) Load 1 live round and one empty case on top. chamber empty case

(2) Pull slide back manually until empty case is ejected.

(3) Release slide.

Fact= If slide travels rearward far enough that empty case is ejected. slide will pick up next round from magazine.


test (B)
4566

(1) COCK PISTOL

(2) push magazine release ,ejecting magazine

(3)insert magazine until you hear first click (this is where the gun will fire without the magazine fully seated in pistol.)

(4) pull trigger,, hammer falls

(5) pull magazine out without pressing mag release.

conclusion= bad police work.
Magazine was not fully set in gun.
Police did not notice it.
Magazine release was more than likely pushed by the police then magazine was manually withdrawn by hand, when if fully seated it would have ejected fully with spring force alone with no need of manually pulling it out by hand.

So the victim could have hit the mag release while having gun cupped in both hands preventing magazine from falling clear of pistol,but instead stay inserted just enough to still fire pistol but not in far enough to strip the next round when slide comes into battery.
This could happen because of the design of the pistol. The pistol was not designed to be pointed at shooters own head!


Will hammer cock if slide does not cycle completely?

answer =YES The hammer fully cocks before the fired case is even half way extracted from chamber.

case closed!

But the 645 has a magazine disconnect safety. It won't fire unless the mag is properly seated. Ticks off a lot of LE guys who got trigger mush at just the time the guy is coming at you with a knife. I'm afraid we must re-open the investigation, Holmes.

 

[willy]

But the 645 has a magazine disconnect safety. It won't fire unless the mag is properly seated. Ticks off a lot of LE guys who got trigger mush at just the time the guy is coming at you with a knife. I'm afraid we must re-open the investigation, Holmes.

Yes it will.
Try it by slowly pushing the mag. in while pulling the trigger.
You should feel it right before the magazine seats fully.

It will drop the hammer before it is fully seated.

 

[rbmcmjr]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

I just checked this supposition with a 4516, which is the closest I can get to a 645. the empty case ejects when the slide is just back far enough to see the sloped approach to the rim on the next cartridge. The slide DOES leave a mark on the top of that cartridge that remains. No magazine safety shenanigans were required.

So the scenario appears to be plausible without too much suspension of belief.