Gun forensics Q: When a SW 645 fails to feed due to limp wristing, will hammer cock?

[fredflintstone]

Here is the scenario in all its exact particulars, Sherlock Holmeses and S&W 645 .45 ACP owners wanted. Man is found apparently of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, S&W 645 to the inside of mouth, pistol drops to floor. But police notice although there are many rounds in the mag, there is not one in the chamber. So perhaps there was a failure to feed a round due to limp-wristing. The other observation is the hammer is cocked in its most rearward position. Wouldn't that mean the slide cycled back, and that a round should have been chambered?

This is specifically an S&W 645, failures to feed are rare in the first place. Some investigators suspecting perhaps it wasn't suicide after all. Opinions please?

 

[ralph7]

The slide pushed the hammer back all the way to full cock because of inertia, but the slide might not have been quite far enough back to strip a round from the magazine.

 

[t-bird]

Don't sound right to me. if hammer was cocked and mag had rounds without a shell in the chamber, then sounds like after it was fired someone removed mag and cleared chamber. Then put the mag back in and laid the 645 by the guy that shot him self.

 

[fredflintstone]

The slide pushed the hammer back all the way to full cock because of inertia, but the slide might not have been quite far enough back to strip a round from the magazine.

That might be possible, but would it be probable enough to close an investigation and stamp it "suicide." Let's say this guy is a prominent reporter who makes powerful people angry. In that case a failure to feed might be one thing, even from the good ol' 645. But the hammer back? I'd have to get one and study the action to see if its even possible. At what point in the cycle is the hammer locked back and a clear path for the new round open? I'd expect at least a stovepipe.

 

[handgunner356]

Well if the guy shot himself with it I could see the gun cycle enough to eject the case and loose enough momentum to not pick up the next round. Should be easy to see if the hammer will cock before the slide is rearward enough to pick up the next round.

 

[shouldazagged]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

 

[fredflintstone]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

Very well Holmes. if there is no round in the chamber but the hammer is cocked it tells me that the empty chamber is not due to the slide not cycling which would resultin a feeding failure. Which tells me either the man was not the last one to handle the weapon or another weapon was used. Wouldn't this be elementary?

 

[jdh]

In all his fumbling about working up the stones to actually pull the the trigger could he have bumped the mag release causing the mag to appear to but not actually be fully seated. It probably will been found that the first officer on the scene secured and cleared the pistol preventing this from ever being verified.

 

[fredflintstone]

In all his fumbling about working up the stones to actually pull the the trigger could he have bumped the mag release causing the mag to appear to but not actually be fully seated. It probably will been found that the first officer on the scene secured and cleared the pistol preventing this from ever being verified.

Will the gun fire without the mag being properly seated?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

And he's been out of the country. We don't perform those operations here at home.

 

[18DAI]

Sounds like Hunter S Thompsons suicide. IIRC his 645 he used to shoot himself was found somewhat as you describe. Rounds in the mag, empty chamber. But I seem to recall that the hammer was at rest against the frame. No loose round was present around the body, which I would expect to find if there had been a misfeed after the initial shot. I would also expect to see the hammer cocked too. But I'm pretty sure it was not.

As a 645 owner shooter, gun enthusiast and 20 years on the job working robbery/homicide, I've never been able to figure out how that gun wound up in that condition after firing one shot.

IIRC......and its been some time.......so I may not......there were many questions at the time, about the investigation into his death and how it was handled. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

BTW, the 645 has a magazine safety. AFAIK it was intact in the late Hunter Thompsons 645. So if the magazine was ajar, or not locked into the gun, the gun would not have fired.

 

[lhump1961]

If he shot himself in the mouth then a person could deduce that there was at least some interference with the slide action simply because of the restricted area for the gun to recoil. Seems it would be prudent to test the gun to see if it could reset the trigger but not chamber a round by slowly cycling the slide to determine at what point the trigger/hammer is reset. I don't have a 3rd gen 45 or I would try it but of course this would have to be done with the specific gun to be of any value.

I tried this with a 3913. I put an empty case in the chamber and loaded the mag with a round with only the bullet and no primer or powder so it was an actual round and not a snap cap or other dummy type replacement. Then I slowly ran the slide back by hand. The trigger/hammer will reset and eject the empty case before it has gone far enough to pick up the next round. So if the slide were to somehow only go to that point in the cycle it is possible it could eject the spent case, reset the hammer and trigger...but NOT chamber another round. At least in this simple test.

 

[fredflintstone]

If he shot himself in the mouth then a person could deduce that there was at least some interference with the slide action simply because of the restricted area for the gun to recoil. Seems it would be prudent to test the gun to see if it could reset the trigger but not chamber a round by slowly cycling the slide to determine at what point the trigger/hammer is reset. I don't have a 3rd gen 45 or I would try it but of course this would have to be done with the specific gun to be of any value.

I tried this with a 3913. I put an empty case in the chamber and loaded the mag with a round with only the bullet and no primer or powder so it was an actual round and not a snap cap or other dummy type replacement. Then I slowly ran the slide back by hand. The trigger/hammer will reset and eject the empty case before it has gone far enough to pick up the next round. So if the slide were to somehow only go to that point in the cycle it is possible it could eject the spent case, reset the hammer and trigger...but NOT chamber another round. At least in this simple test.

Anyone have a 645 they could try this with? Even if possible this would be one heck of a hiccup, slide would have to stop its rearward motion at exactly the point where the hammer is cocked but not far enough back to complete the chambering cycle. It would be interesting to see if this malfunction resulting in this specific configuration can be duplicated on the range. It's easy enough to induce a limp-wristing failure to feed on some guns, like a polymer frame Glock. Don't know about the SW 645.

 

[jdh]

Will the gun fire without the mag being properly seated?

I seem to remember there is a point where the mag is just unlocked yet in far enough to trip the mag safety. As the slide travels back it puts enough oomph on the top cartridge to push the mag down enough to allow the slide to not pick up the rim and ride over the cartridge instead of feeding it. But is has been about 25 years since I last qualified with a 645 and had to guess what the range officers did to jack with us.

 

[lhump1961]

Anyone have a 645 they could try this with? Even if possible this would be one heck of a hiccup, slide would have to stop its rearward motion at exactly the point where the hammer is cocked but not far enough back to complete the chambering cycle. It would be interesting to see if this malfunction resulting in this specific configuration can be duplicated on the range. It's easy enough to induce a limp-wristing failure to feed on some guns, like a polymer frame Glock. Don't know about the SW 645.

I doubt if this could be easily duplicated. It would require impeding the action of the slide during live fire and that would be risky at best! But it seems theoretically possible for it to occur.

 

[JohnHL]

This scenario seems entirely reasonable.
As I recall from the recent 4006 thread, Smith & Wesson learned (probably through high speed photography) that when fired, the hammers on their semi-automatic pistols did not smoothly and closely maintain contact with the slides during the recoil cycle but rather were suddenly and violently thrust rearwards at a greater speed than the slide during the initial recoil impulse.
Unlike when we manually manipulate the slide, during live fire operation, cocking the hammer requires very little slide movement.
And as was pointed out above, the slide does not need to move all the way to the rear to eject the empty case, but full travel would be required to strip and chamber a round.
The free movement of the slide would also be impeded by the (very soon to be) decedent's lips and teeth. (Too graphic?)
But hammer up or hammer down, it still seems to me to be within the operational parameters of this pistol.

John

 

[Ethang]

John, came here to post something similar but will just agree with you. How much slide movement to eject an empty case and partially cock the hammer vs eject and fully feed from the magazine. try and extreme limp wrist, plus maybe a last second, second thought.

Also, a slight pull of the trigger and ejection of the mag renders the magazine safety inert.

 

[SpinyNorman]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

 

[James Bond]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

Well done, Holmes!

 

[James Bond]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

I would probably send the firearm to Abby Sciuto at NCIS. Her forensic investigation will no doubt solve this mystery...

 

[4330Inroute]

Use your powers of observation, Watson. There is not a cartridge in the chamber of the pistol, but the hammer is cocked. From this we can deduce that the murderer is a man of five feet seven inches who weighs approximately twelve stone. He wears a size nine hat, probably a bowler. He has been a sailor, a watchmaker and a seamstress. He would have been a rebellious boy who did poorly at school but showed aptitude for sport. Likely a bit of a clot. He certainly knows damn all about pistols.

Yes, but what color was his dog?

 

[fredflintstone]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

Brilliant, Holmes!

 

[fredflintstone]

Sounds like Hunter S Thompsons suicide. IIRC his 645 he used to shoot himself was found somewhat as you describe. Rounds in the mag, empty chamber. But I seem to recall that the hammer was at rest against the frame. No loose round was present around the body, which I would expect to find if there had been a misfeed after the initial shot. I would also expect to see the hammer cocked too. But I'm pretty sure it was not.

As a 645 owner shooter, gun enthusiast and 20 years on the job working robbery/homicide, I've never been able to figure out how that gun wound up in that condition after firing one shot.

IIRC......and its been some time.......so I may not......there were many questions at the time, about the investigation into his death and how it was handled. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

BTW, the 645 has a magazine safety. AFAIK it was intact in the late Hunter Thompsons 645. So if the magazine was ajar, or not locked into the gun, the gun would not have fired.

The hammer was cocked. How could the hammer cock but the round not load? Doesn't it happen at about the same time? Yes, it seems a loose round should be laying around somewhere. Or stovepiped.

 

[willy]

Interesting,, so I checked it out .
4566
TEST (A)
(1) Load 1 live round and one empty case on top. chamber empty case

(2) Pull slide back manually until empty case is ejected.

(3) Release slide.

Fact= If slide travels rearward far enough that empty case is ejected. slide will pick up next round from magazine.


test (B)
4566

(1) COCK PISTOL

(2) push magazine release ,ejecting magazine

(3)insert magazine until you hear first click (this is where the gun will fire without the magazine fully seated in pistol.)

(4) pull trigger,, hammer falls

(5) pull magazine out without pressing mag release.

conclusion= bad police work.
Magazine was not fully set in gun.
Police did not notice it.
Magazine release was more than likely pushed by the police then magazine was manually withdrawn by hand, when if fully seated it would have ejected fully with spring force alone with no need of manually pulling it out by hand.

So the victim could have hit the mag release while having gun cupped in both hands preventing magazine from falling clear of pistol,but instead stay inserted just enough to still fire pistol but not in far enough to strip the next round when slide comes into battery.
This could happen because of the design of the pistol. The pistol was not designed to be pointed at shooters own head!


Will hammer cock if slide does not cycle completely?

answer =YES The hammer fully cocks before the fired case is even half way extracted from chamber.

case closed!

 

[Doug M.]

IIRC, if the trigger is on its way back when the mag release is hit, there is a point at which the trigger will continue its travel and the mag safety will not keep the pistol from firing. It is possible that first officer on scene made the gun safe in some manner that is more or less reflex and did not notice or document the relatively nuanced differences that could explain the circumstances that cause your question. Where did the empty from firing end up?

BTW - the work for a murderer to get the pistol to empty chamber with hammer back status seems kind of silly and excessive. Leaving the pistol as is would have made much more sense than fiddling with it.

 

[shouldazagged]

Yes, but what color was his dog?

Baskerville brown.

 

[fredflintstone]

Interesting,, so I checked it out .
4566
TEST (A)
(1) Load 1 live round and one empty case on top. chamber empty case

(2) Pull slide back manually until empty case is ejected.

(3) Release slide.

Fact= If slide travels rearward far enough that empty case is ejected. slide will pick up next round from magazine.


test (B)
4566

(1) COCK PISTOL

(2) push magazine release ,ejecting magazine

(3)insert magazine until you hear first click (this is where the gun will fire without the magazine fully seated in pistol.)

(4) pull trigger,, hammer falls

(5) pull magazine out without pressing mag release.

conclusion= bad police work.
Magazine was not fully set in gun.
Police did not notice it.
Magazine release was more than likely pushed by the police then magazine was manually withdrawn by hand, when if fully seated it would have ejected fully with spring force alone with no need of manually pulling it out by hand.

So the victim could have hit the mag release while having gun cupped in both hands preventing magazine from falling clear of pistol,but instead stay inserted just enough to still fire pistol but not in far enough to strip the next round when slide comes into battery.
This could happen because of the design of the pistol. The pistol was not designed to be pointed at shooters own head!


Will hammer cock if slide does not cycle completely?

answer =YES The hammer fully cocks before the fired case is even half way extracted from chamber.

case closed!

But the 645 has a magazine disconnect safety. It won't fire unless the mag is properly seated. Ticks off a lot of LE guys who got trigger mush at just the time the guy is coming at you with a knife. I'm afraid we must re-open the investigation, Holmes.

 

[willy]

But the 645 has a magazine disconnect safety. It won't fire unless the mag is properly seated. Ticks off a lot of LE guys who got trigger mush at just the time the guy is coming at you with a knife. I'm afraid we must re-open the investigation, Holmes.

Yes it will.
Try it by slowly pushing the mag. in while pulling the trigger.
You should feel it right before the magazine seats fully.

It will drop the hammer before it is fully seated.

 

[rbmcmjr]

The top-most round in the magazine should show a slight scratch from the bottom of the slide as it slid over the unfed round. If the cases are brass the stainless (thus harder) slide should leave a distinct mark compared to the brass on brass contact made from loading the magazine. I'm not sure how this would work with nickel plated brass. (Thinking microscopes here, like rifling mark analysis)

I just checked this supposition with a 4516, which is the closest I can get to a 645. the empty case ejects when the slide is just back far enough to see the sloped approach to the rim on the next cartridge. The slide DOES leave a mark on the top of that cartridge that remains. No magazine safety shenanigans were required.

So the scenario appears to be plausible without too much suspension of belief.