Gun Games will get you killed

Rastoff

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In another thread this comment was made:
I've yet to see ANY gun games that didn't teach habits that would get you killed in a gunfight. If your goal is to learn how to shoot to live, if you carry a gun to survive, gun games are not the solution.

It made me open my eyes and wonder why anyone would say this. I believe that the author intended to say that by practicing special tactics that are specific to the game, that could develop habits that won't work on the street. Thus, that habit could inhibit your ability to defend yourself in the real world.

Personally, I disagree. I think competitions like IDPA or USPSA can greatly help a shooter by adding pressure and movement. If you use your regular carry gun and gear, I think those games can be a tremendous asset.

What do you guys think?
 
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The emphasis in "games" always devolves to speed. The winner is the one who engages the targets with the most hits in the least amount of time. In street (or home) engagements, you have to be 100%+ certain of your target and the situation presented to you. This requires "time," even if you have precious little of it in the encounter. In the games you assume any target that is not obviously a do-not-shoot target is fair game. Not so in real life.

The comment is even more pertinent to paintball and airsoft games where the participants have unlimited ammunition and little deterrent to getting "hit."

I am not saying that you have to be timid or uncertain in real life. but you do have to be very certain that you want to shoot.
 
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I agree, but I can count the times I have used true carry gear at a match on one hand. I have found out what's fast and what's secure from USPSA, ZSA, and 3 gun. IDPA was a discipline I left behind quickly due to a predominance of lost brass local matches. I drifted toward disciplines that allowed greater round count and trigger time for the entry fee.

I feel like the general skill sets built in the matches such as familiarity with your weapon, muscle memory for the draw and reload, shooting in the move and seeing what you need to see to get the hit are all valid for defense. I don't feel too many bad habits are being made. If I can see my sights faster than the other fella and get the hits, what I am wearing for concealment or how much of me is behind cover don't matter. I believe in DVC: Accuracy, Power, and Speed. I also believe in moving while I shoot to lessen the chances of being hit.

Without the presence of a timer and some sort of push, the average shooter camps on his sight picture and takes all day to fire a shot. He the fumbles through the reload and by gosh or by golly's the gun back into action. Heaven forbid we have a malfunction as that may take all kinds of effort to correct. He will most certainly never learn to shoot on the move.

I believe the shooting schools are great, but require time and money that some folks aren't able to allocate. I also believe they are heavily geared toward selling tacticool clothing and other accessories for the mall ninja on your Christmas list. I'd like to see someone regularly come out in jeans and a casual shirt with regular shoes on to teach the class using a gun that lacks bells and whistles.
 
Competition does a great job of making gun handling second nature. You also develop a set of gun safety habits that you don't forget. Wanting to become a better shot for competition gives you the motivation to really work on your shooting & the feed back to find your weaknesses. Very few of the "tactical" shooters show the ability of even a mid level competitive shooter. Watch a competitive shooter handle the 3-10 yd. shots. The speed & accuracy are not what you see in the defense oriented shooters and we know we can handle the long shots too. That argument is just "mine is better than yours" but don't make me shoot with you.
 
I also believe they are heavily geared toward selling tacticool clothing and other accessories for the mall ninja on your Christmas list. I'd like to see someone regularly come out in jeans and a casual shirt with regular shoes on to teach the class using a gun that lacks bells and whistles.
The schools I've attended were not like that. Sure, one of them, had stuff you could buy, but all the instructors are required to have and use bone stock guns.

When it comes to 1/100ths of a second to win, then the "bells and whistles" will help. But, I believe the average guy can compete at local matches well with an everyday gun.
 
The only shooting school I was fortunate enough to attend, many years ago, was the FBI Basic SWAT training in Quantico, VA. The gun handling/shooting skills I developed were excellent and have stayed w/me over the years. I'm not sure if it's even offered anymore but if any active LEOs are on this thread it would be worth checking into.
 
The gun games can teach valuable lessons. The first being not to waste time. There are others, relating to gun handling, stress etc.

The big issue is what frame of mind the participant is in. Are they out there to practice a skill set, or to win some award? Are they using their real world equipment in a real world manner?

Granted, some match/stage designers do some stages that, real world, aren't survivable. You just have to ignore absurdities and move on. One of the last IDPA matches I shot (I use duty gear), a RO suggested I slow down on my movement so as not to disturb my sight picture. My reply was that I didn't get to senior citizen status by mosying in kill zones.

I've never been to one of the gun game schools. As instructor, I've dealt with those who either have been or watched the videos from some. What may work with a game gun shot in a gun game frequently doesn't successfully translate to the real world where the consequences go beyond lost hundredths of a second. I did once have a great put down: after commenting upon a shooters poor technique, he said that (insert famous name) used that technique. After a brief pause, I replyed that I'd shot in his squad the previous day (true) and hadn't noticed it. After pointedly inspecting his target, I suggested that since HE obviously wasn't doing too well, perhaps he should try stroking the trigger per training received here.
 
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I ordered the box set of Jim Cirillos books and DVDs from Paladin, prior to this precipitating. I will be interested to see what he said. He survived 17 gunfights by winning. I'll listen to that. If it helps my competition great, if not I'll surely not discount it.
 
I don't participate in competition, so please correct me if I am wrong, but is there any drill in these sports that awards points for drawing quickly and NOT shooting? That's one of the biggest issues to me. I realized a long time ago that, in my case at least, I have to be careful about developing an equal skill at drawing or pointing a pistol and not puling the trigger. If I work on fast-draw type exercises, it's great fun, but it's also too easy to get into a bad habit of automatically firing. I think some shooting games may exacerbate this. Your thoughts?
 
Massad Ayoob is certainly a strong proponent in almost all of his writings of competition to hone real-life skills; especially getting accustomed to working under some level of stress. He is always showing pictures of matches he won using various stock guns. I personally don't see how it could hurt to develop and refine basic shooting skills like draw, trigger control, follow-up, etc. with competition. If nothing else it has to help with confidence. I do think its important to not become dependent on "race guns"!
 
forrest, coul,d you please prepare a synopsis and share it with us.

Sure enough.

With regard to race guns, yes I think they're bogus when used for defense. Look at the top shot where Chris Tilley and Blake Miguez had so much muscle memory on the 1911 that they really didn't shoot anything else all that remarkably well. I'm nowhere near their level, but even I find I need an attitude adjustment when going to shoot an m9 after some serious time on a competition revolver or 1911. You have to realize that you need to make the magic with every wand and not just your favorite one. That is what may help you last until sunrise. I like found gun stages for this reason.
 
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I agree that gun games/action pistol matches all help to improve gun handling under a modest level of stress. It's a good thing when one's attention and decision making (i.e.; shoot/no shoot) can be devoted to the specifics of the situation one may find oneself in, rather than how to manage a weapon. Besides, gun games are fun.

That said, the primary tactical concern is survival. One may have to win a gunfight to survive, but seeking cover or running or driving away may be better tactics than shooting.

We can be seduced by the clock. The timer adds training stress but conditions us to hurry. Jim Cirillo reported taking part in a tactical match, and ignoring the clock in order to take cover right after the timer went off. (He didn't win). Clint Smith is also fond of stating that he has never seen or heard of a stopwatch in a gunfight. When he took me through the "Terminator" at Thunder Ranch it was all about survival, not speed.
 
I don't participate in competition, so please correct me if I am wrong, but is there any drill in these sports that awards points for drawing quickly and NOT shooting? That's one of the biggest issues to me. I realized a long time ago that, in my case at least, I have to be careful about developing an equal skill at drawing or pointing a pistol and not puling the trigger. If I work on fast-draw type exercises, it's great fun, but it's also too easy to get into a bad habit of automatically firing. I think some shooting games may exacerbate this. Your thoughts?
If properly taught, this shouldn't be an issue. Let me explain...

The decision to shoot, especially in self defense, should be made before you present the gun. In other words, don't take your gun out unless you have to use it in defense of your life or of another innocent.

Now, there will be some who claim that presenting your gun, without shooting, will diffuse a situation. I'm not one of those. If I can't diffuse the situation without my gun, I'm in too deep already and will probably have to shoot anyway.

A more direct answer to your question is, yes, there are targets you are required to not shoot. There are some games that have pop up targets that require you to decide if they need to be shot or not.
 
Originally Posted by Darkenfast
I don't participate in competition, so please correct me if I am wrong, but is there any drill in these sports that awards points for drawing quickly and NOT shooting? That's one of the biggest issues to me. I realized a long time ago that, in my case at least, I have to be careful about developing an equal skill at drawing or pointing a pistol and not puling the trigger. If I work on fast-draw type exercises, it's great fun, but it's also too easy to get into a bad habit of automatically firing. I think some shooting games may exacerbate this. Your thoughts?

The short answer is yes. Some scenarios are set up such that there are penalties for engaging a target that comes suddenly into view that is not a threat. An example would be a silhouette target that is displaying empty hands rather than a weapon, etc.

Originally Posted by Rastoff
The decision to shoot, especially in self defense, should be made before you present the gun. In other words, don't take your gun out unless you have to use it in defense of your life or of another innocent.

I suggest that a better answer might be not to present a weapon unless an imminent threat to life is perceived to exist. In a number situations one would be unwise to not have the gun drawn. The decision to shoot/not shoot would follow. In such a situation the weapon is in a firing grip but is left in a "low ready" or some other position not indexed on the possible threat. An example would be clearing one's dwelling where a threat could be anticipated at very close quarters, lunging around a corner for instance. Or an "active shooter" conflict where the defender has chosen to take cover in another portion of a structure to avoid confrontation, but is later intruded upon by the prowling shooter.

So many "games" can be set up to require thought, discretion and restraint. I think games get us into trouble when we obsess about the clock or get into a "stand and fight" mentality at the expense of opting for cover or escape.

Originally Posted by Rastoff
Now, there will be some who claim that presenting your gun, without shooting, will diffuse a situation. I'm not one of those. If I can't diffuse the situation without my gun, I'm in too deep already and will probably have to shoot anyway.

I agree that "the mere presence of a firearm" as a means of diffusing a bad situation (as articulated monthly by the NRA in it's Armed Citizen column each month) is a shaky concept, and an invitation to have a situation spin really badly out of control.

But don't forget that in between the drawing of the gun and shooting there are other options. Specifically, controlling behavior that must not be allowed to continue with verbal commands. Commands shouted out loud such as "STOP! Show me your hands!" and so forth may prevent further escalation. If words don't suffice to control a lethal threat, then compliance can be obtained with gunfire. Incremental escalation of force.

As a personal protection instructor I insist that students train using verbal commands. I also advocate incorporation of verbal commands into the scoring of tactical games.
 
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Years ago I was pretty active in IPSC match shooting. I eventually tired of (and was unable to afford) the arms race. So, I went back to a fairly stock Colt Combat Commander .45 in a paddle style holster. Didn't score much better or worse.
It was a big club, lots of serious competition. But lots of serving cops and deputies too. Some of them wore full duty rigs and guns for match shooting. Their moves were tactical and professional. They rarely "won" since their movement was sure, not fast. I watched those guys, and learned some things.
 
Ya, gun games will get you killed...just like race car training will get you killed and and Krav Maga will get you killed and...

I'm pretty sure the top level club competition shooters can take care of themselves just fine.
 
WOW!

I daresay you do not have much (any?) experience in real life use of a gun. :eek:

Be safe.

If properly taught, this shouldn't be an issue. Let me explain...

The decision to shoot, especially in self defense, should be made before you present the gun. In other words, don't take your gun out unless you have to use it in defense of your life or of another innocent. ...
 
I suggest that a better answer might be not to present a weapon unless an imminent threat to life is perceived to exist.
I can't argue with that. Nothing is set in stone. There are always exceptions.


Commands shouted out loud such as "STOP! Show me your hands!" and so forth may prevent further escalation. If words don't suffice to control a lethal threat, then compliance can be obtained with gunfire. Incremental escalation of force.

As a personal protection instructor I insist that students train using verbal commands. I also advocate incorporation of verbal commands into the scoring of tactical games.
I agree 100% that verbal commands are valuable and powerful. However, presenting a gun when you don't need to can lead to a sticky situation legally. Here in CA, if you present the gun and there is no imminent threat, you're brandishing a weapon which is a crime in itself.

Neither will I recommend clearing a house. If I'm concerned that someone is in my house illegally, I have cops to do that for me. Of course that's not set in stone either. If I know my family is in there, I'm going to protect them as best I can and then of course I'd have my gun out.


I'm dying to hear The Big D's "real life" experiences though. He obviously has many to tell us.
 
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