Gun Show "Loophole"

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I've been going to gun shows for about 40 years. I used to go with my Dad, and sometimes he would rent a table. He bought, sold and traded mostly older single-shot rifles that were his main interest. He was never a dealer, and back then many tables were rented by non-dealer collectors.
We see a lot today about the "Gun Show Loophole" that allows people to buy without the background checks. Some people say the number is 40% that don't go through a check.For the last several years when I have been to shows nearly all the tables were rented by dealers. I can't remember the last time I saw a non-dealer table. This means every sale is put through the required checks.
My question is, what is it like where you live? Are non-dealer tables all that common? I gotta believe it's quite rare, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Oh, guess I DO remember the last time I bought from a private party at a show. It was in 1999, and I bought a PERFECT 4" M27-2.......for $300.:D
Yeah, that one sticks in my memory.;)
Jim
 
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I would support the end of this loophole ONLY if the Federal government does not register our firearms, I mean any registration could be used by future Obama*Obama (that means someone who is even more anti-guns than Obama) to confiscate firearms.

Loophole can be used by anyone to buy firearm in ~43 states w/o any background check.
 
Colorado eliminated it after Colombine.
Private sales without a background check are still legal,but any sale at a gunshow is required to have it.
 
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gun show in Colorado

we went to a gun show in Colorado last year, there was big sign over the door said NO SALES IN THE PARKING LOT ALL SALES MUST GO TO A FFL. that was the first time I ever saw that at a gun show.
 
The last one I bought from a table here the seller charged me another $35 to have a guy at another table do the background check...
 
There is no such thing as a gun show loophole. If you do not follow
applicable state laws when making a transaction then you are breaking
the law. The "GunShow loophole" is a myth created by anti's.


My understanding is only a few states (such as NY, MI) requires background check even the sales is between private person at gun show. Most states don't have such requirement. Federal law only says: if you don't have a reason to believe the buyer is a criminal, the sale can go through!
 
What is not mentioned by the anti-2A folk who want to end the "gun show loophole" is the fact they really are talking about any sale made between two non-ffl types, ie: private sales, which occurs both in and outside of gun shows.
 
Numerous non dealer tables here. Private citizen may sell to private citizen who has proof of Texas residency, and no reason to believe the buyer is prohibited from possessing a firearm by federal law. Other transactions must be thru FFL.
see:
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
 
The major gun show I went to in Florida 90% of the tables where Gunshops or Pawnshops. The other 9% where Knives, apparel and Accessories. I over heard several dealers saying people would have to come pick the guns up after there 3 day waiting period with out a CWP.
Tops there where 1 or 2 people trolling around with backpacks on holding guns saying looking to sale.
 
Good points all. The anti's would have you believe that once you enter a gunshow that state laws vanish. Not true.
 
In PA , private individuals can sell longarms face to face. I do know of people that set up at gunshows fairly often that do not have FFLs. They're older guys who mostly sell old .22s and shotguns.

Many show promotors do not allow non-FFLs to sell any firearms at their shows.

Any handgun sale must be done by or thru an FFL with required background check and confirmation number.

Though by law there is no registration in PA , the state police maintain an illegal "record of sale database" of handguns sold within PA. By their own admission , it is incomplete.
 
Im in WI. Things are changing. I would say 75% or more have started using "square trade" to accept credit cards with Smart phones, tablets, etc. Most of the tables also call in background checks. Now that I think of it, some of the dealer tables even had a 48 hour waiting period. You would have to go pick it up at their house or shop.
 
In Texas if you have a Texas CCL, you do not need to undergo the background check, either at a gunshow, or a gunstore. A FBI background check, with fingerprints, is required to obtain and maintain the CCL, which exempts you from the usual background check when purchasing a firearm from a FFl.
 
There is NO Gun Show Loop Hole

Here is copy of information that I have sent to journalists relating to the misnamed gun show loop hole.

Feel free to copy and distribute.

Bekeart

*****

Most of the time when the term "gun show loop hole" is used it is followed by misinformation and/or outright lies.

There is no GUN SHOW loop hole. At a gun show citizens are exercising their rights to buy and sell personal property, subject to the same state and federal laws that would apply to selling at their home.

Any licensed dealer selling at a gun show is required to follow all the same laws and rules that apply in his storefront.
The buyer fills out the same federally required form (4473) detailing the buyers qualifications to purchase.
The dealer then calls the information in ( to NICS ) for an instant background check. NICS is located at the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia.

If the buyer is approved the dealer may deliver the firearm to the buyer as allowed under local or state regulations. (Some states have a waiting period before deliver; other states do not have any required waiting period.)

A dealer may NOT deliver any handgun to a nonresident of the dealer's state.
Any handgun purchase would be sent to a licensed dear in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to pick up from that dealer.


The dealer may, under certain conditions, deliver a rifle or shotgun to a nonresident.

ANY individual selling personal firearms is under the same rules whether he be at a gun show, a flea market, or ANY other location in his state of residence.

But we never hear or read any comments about a "yard sale loop hole".

At the gun show a unlicensed individual may sell any firearm to a resident of his sate, but only if the show is located in his state of residence.

The individual is required to be convinced the buyer is a state resident and of legal age to purchase the firearm. The seller must also reasonably believe that the potential buyer is not prohibited by because of felony conviction or other regulations.

ANY individual selling personal firearms is under the same rules whether he be at a gun show or a yard sale.
But we never hear or read any comments about a "yard sale loop hole".

Submitted for your consideration.




*******************************

Notice to Dealers and Other Participants at Gun Shows
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/ATF_I_5300 23A.pdf


> FBI — Gun Checks/NICS

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harm—by not letting guns and explosives fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.

Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn't otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. More than 100 million such checks have been made in the last decade, leading to more than 700,000 denials.

NICS is located at the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia. It provides full service to FFLs in 30 states, five U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia. Upon completion of the required Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, FFLs contact the NICS Section via a toll-free telephone number or electronically on the Internet through the NICS E-Check System to request a background check with the descriptive information provided on the ATF Form 4473. NICS is customarily available 17 hours a day, seven days a week, including holidays (except for Christmas).

************************

>ATF Online - Contact - Frequently Asked Questions

Q: How do I register a firearm I bought from a friend?

If it is a firearm that does not fall under the National Firearms Act (NFA) description, there is no federal registration. However, there may be state or local requirements and you should contact your state or local agencies.

(Clarification by Larry - NFA includes machineguns, short barrel shotguns, etc. Not any of the common shotguns, rifles, or handguns.))

Please note:

1. An individual may only sell/transfer a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state.
2. You cannot transfer/sell a weapon to someone if you believe or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearm under Federal law.
3. If the above requirements are met, ATF recommends the buyer and seller both keep a bill of sale (a document who sold the firearm, a description of the firearm, and who bought the firearm) so that if the firearm is ever traced, the buyer/seller can provide the information.
 
I know in Iowa it is perfectly legal to have face to face sales between parties who are not dealers. The law states the seller must be sure the buyer is legally entitled to the sale.
But what I want to know is in your state, what approximate percentage of tables selling guns are rented by non-dealers? At the shows I go to, I would bet it's not more than 2%.
Jim
 
Non Dealer Tables

But what I want to know is in your state, what approximate percentage of tables selling guns are rented by non-dealers? At the shows I go to, I would bet it's not more than 2%.
Jim

For non-dealers selling firearms I am counting any with two or more firearms for sale on a table. In some cases the non-dealer's table may have mostly miscellaneous items. Grips / Ammo / Magazines / Scopes / Cases / Ammo / Knives / Etc.

Do not have exact numbers. Just my GUESS is that 10-15 percent of TABLES selling guns are non-dealers. Some are serious collectors with very brand/model specific inventory and others sell a mixture of grips, barrels, magazines, accessories and a few firearms.

Counting a different way there are probably more non-dealers than dealers. This difference is because many non-dealers have only one table while the dealers have 10 - 15 tables.

My observation is that by far most of the firearm sales are being made by FFL dealers. It appears that attendees walking the aisles make at least as many sales as the non-dealers.

That seems to be the situation here in western Kentucky.

Bekeart

Clarifying my definition of non-dealer selling firearms.
 
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I am right close to Illinois, probably the state with the most draconian gun laws in the country. Chicago has the most gun related murders in the country. The last mayor, the new mayor, and their police superintendents have constantly whined for years about illegal guns being smuggled into Chicago from gun friendly states like Indiana.
Last spring the powers that be in Chicago decided to do an in depth study using confiscated crime guns and trace them to the original sale to the public after manufacture. What they found was overwhelmingly the crime guns were purchased ORIGINALLY from dealers legally in ILLINOIS.
In '47 when I was born there were 155 million in this country. Roughly 14 million served in WWII. Assume that millions of war trophy guns were bring backs adding to the guns here already. There still were no problems with guns to speak of even though the number per capita probably exceeded today's figures.
So...Anybody with any sense has to see the liberalization of our legal system, and the freedoms granted to crazies is the root of most of the evils in this country committed with guns. I guess the word "sense" excludes our ruling lords and ladies.
 
What is not mentioned by the anti-2A folk who want to end the "gun show loophole" is the fact they really are talking about any sale made between two non-ffl types, ie: private sales, which occurs both in and outside of gun shows.

Excellent point, often missed.

This is merely one step to registration.

The step beyond registration is confiscation.
 

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