Gun Show Loopholes?

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mac2

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Every now and again, we foreigners sometimes read/hear about gunshow loopholes which the anti-gunners/media would like to close with tougher laws. This is met with a lot of resistance by the gun lobby. Apparently.

Apparently, checks people are subject to at an FFL/gun store don't apply at a gun show, ergo, it's easier for the people who would be prohibited from purchasing firearms elsewhere and with good reason, to get them from a gun show...

Can anyone explain in simple language, what the situation is here? Why would the law abiding resist measures to keep them out of the hands of the other types...

Cheers!
 
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Gun Show Loophole is the wrong term. When you buy from a dealer at a gun show you do exactly the same thing if you bought it at a store; fill out Form 4473, background check, etc.
What is at issue is private sales between individuals. They want to stop law abiding gun owners from buying, selling, or trading.
 
O2Guy said:
Gun Show Loophole is the wrong term. When you buy from a dealer at a gun show you do exactly the same thing if you bought it at a store; fill out Form 4473, background check, etc.
What is at issue is private sales between individuals. They want to stop law abiding gun owners from buying, selling, or trading.
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Thanks! Interesting the private sales thing - I mean, WE'RE allowed private sales between licensed individuals, so looks like they're trying to get stricter than us...
 
There is no loophole. You sell a gun to a prohibited person you get to go to jail. Same federal law for gun sales be it an FFL dealer or a private individual. The FFL dealer has form 4473 that the prospective buyer fills out and then the FFL dealer calls in to get the background check. An individual selling to another individual still has to follow the same law that the FFL dealer does but they don't have a 4473 to have the buyer to fill out or the ability to call in for the background check. The private individual has to determine on their own if the buyer is legally able to own a weapon.

Many ask the buyer if they have a conceal carry license before selling. Personally if you don't have a CCL I wouldn't sell a gun to you. If I don't like your looks I won't sell. There are many reasons to not sell to someone and very few reasons to sell. Really doesn't matter because I don't sell my guns. I remember all of those threads of people bemoaning the fact that they had sold a gun when I got started in the gun hobby. I just didn't want to go through that process so I hold on to mine.
 
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The so called loophole is:

Individuals can sell guns to each other without involving the government.

If a store is selling guns at a gun show, it is just like buying a gun at the store and normal rules apply.
 
ladyT said:
There is no loophole. You sell a gun to a prohibited person you get to go to jail.
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That's not quite correct, according to my understanding. Texas doesn't have a documentation requirement for private sales, and if you make a good faith effort to determine that the buyer can legally buy the gun, then you are not liable. What constitutes good faith in Texas can be as simple as asking the buyer, "Can you legally buy this gun?" A prudent seller would ask to see a driver's license, and ask more specifically, "Are you a legal resident of the USA and Texas, are you 21 or older, and can you legally buy this gun?" There is no requirement to complete a bill of sale or other paperwork with a private sale.

Now, I'm not an attorney nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, so take this for what it's worth...but this is what I was told by both a gun shop owner and an attorney.
 
Like any other "Sane Gun Control" is not to keep them out of bad guys hands, but to slowly but surely remove guns from circulation. If it was not for the drug culture gangs, America would have one of the lowest gun crime usage of any country, even those that prohibit private gun ownership.
 
At least here in free states like Kentucky, the laws inside the doors of a gun show are exactly like the laws outside the gun show.

Many FFLs(federally firearms licensees) set up at gun shows. If one purchases a gun from an FFL at a gun show, the buyer must fill out a 4473 and pass the background check(or show a valid CCW) before taking possession of the gun.

In Kentucky and many other states, it's perfectly legal for a private individual to sell a gun to another private individual with no government involvement, provided that both are Kentucky residents and the seller doesn't have any reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. Please note that the seller does not have to confirm that the buyer is not a prohibited person, just that they can't sell if they KNOW the buyer is prohibited from possessing a gun. This is true both inside and outside a gun show.

I have sold a couple of guns at gun shows as a private seller. If I don't know the buyer, I ask them to show me a Kentucky drivers license or CCW. I don't even look at their name-I just do this to check that they are a Kentucky resident. If I know the person, I don't even ask for this. Assuming that they are a Kentucky resident, I take their money and they take the gun. This is no different from how things would happen if I bought a gun from a neighbor or a from a classified ad.

Visit a typical gun show, and probably half(if not more) of the folks with tables actually selling guns are FFLs. The private individuals selling guns tend pretty heavily toward bolt action rifles, shotguns, and revolvers. Any more, at least around here, the gun shows tend to have more folks selling ammo, holsters, knives, magazines and other gun accesories, MREs, geiger counters, beef jerky, and scented candles than actually selling guns.
 
The so-called "Gun Show Loophole" is a catch phrase coined by highly organized and well-funded gun haters. No licensed dealer can sell a gun without having the buyer fill out Form 4473 and running a NICS check or verifying the buyer has a carry permit.

What hoplophobes hate is the fact that in most states one citizen can sell a gun to another resident of the same state without any restriction. It would NOT be legal for said purchaser to cross state lines with it or for me to ship a gun into another state.

I know you Brits don't have a constitution and therefore Parliament can take away any right any time Parliament choses. We fought to have a different system and we ain't giving it up. Ask Piers Morgan....and please take the fool back.
 
Well I agree with Lady T on trying to size up a person before selling them a gun. If I see something suspicious or something that sets of that little bell in the back of my brain I don't sell them a gun. I always ask to see a drivers license and if they have a CHL. If they don't have the CHL I look them over again and sometimes I'll sell to them anyway depending upon their appearance and demeanor.

I also agree with GKC in regards to the laws governing private sales. It is my understanding that if you make a good faith effort to determine whether or not a prospective gun buyer may legally purchase a gun you have met your requirements.
 
Like others said, it's not a loophole it's just a face to face sale between individuals. They say gunshow because there is more chances of finding something you'd like that someone else happens to be selling.

Depending on the state you might not be able to do it anyway. My state, Pa, allows face to face transaction for long guns....rifles and shotguns but no handguns. Other states allow handguns while some don't allow any type

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S&WIowegan said:
It would NOT be legal for said purchaser to cross state lines with it or for me to ship a gun into another state.
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Just as a small point, it's actually legal for a private individual to ship a gun into another state provided that the individual is shipping the gun to an FFL(although not all FFLs are will to receive from private individuals). There are also laws and regulations as to what type of shipper a private individual can use depending on what type of gun is being shipped.
 
OK; thanks for the answers - I enjoy getting an insight into what happens in other countries/fields/subjects
 
Easy dude. This is NOT the time nor the place for your political rants. The gentleman from England was asking about gun show loopholes, not politics.
 
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Taurus627, the last sentence of mac2's OP begged for a political rant. It was a legitimate, innocent query for information until that unfortunate question/statement.
 
I notice the word "licenced" as in it sounds like in England both parties require some kind of permit. Is this a permit just to own the gun, to be able to own guns, or is another permit require to sell your own gun? I only ask because I don't want to assume one or the other.
 
redlevel said:
Taurus627, the last sentence of mac2's OP begged for a political rant. It was a legitimate, innocent query for information until that unfortunate question/statement.
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yeah, I can see what you mean, but we 3000 miles away in a foreign country looking in, only see a limited amount of info in the MSM, which is why I asked here to get a further insight from those "on the ground" as it were
 
GKC said:
That's not quite correct, according to my understanding. Texas doesn't have a documentation requirement for private sales, and if you make a good faith effort to determine that the buyer can legally buy the gun, then you are not liable. What constitutes good faith in Texas can be as simple as asking the buyer, "Can you legally buy this gun?" A prudent seller would ask to see a driver's license, and ask more specifically, "Are you a legal resident of the USA and Texas, are you 21 or older, and can you legally buy this gun?" There is no requirement to complete a bill of sale or other paperwork with a private sale.

Now, I'm not an attorney nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, so take this for what it's worth...but this is what I was told by both a gun shop owner and an attorney.
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Gunshow loophole is a federal problem not a Texas problem and my answer was in regards to federal law not Texas. Now if you wish to gamble your freedom on Texas vs. Federal law have at. I though will take very step I can to ensure I don't end up in jail over gun. My freedom is just to important to me.
 
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