Guns and Protests

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Here’s a perfect example of doing it wrong:


, Video of Karen at a No Kings Protest
Notice a few things. First, it’s extremely open. Second, she’s not carrying it for protection or self-defense- she’s counter-protesting, trying to disrupt the crowd. She’s surrounded, with multiple people in close. Third, the firearm here is her talisman- notice how she grabs for it when she evidently loses an argument or gets frustrated? Either way, her “obey me I’m armed!” Karen becomes a lethal threat to everyone around her, because she’s an idiot trying to introduce a firearm to an argument. Hence the swarm-and-drop, for which she’s lucky…what if she clears Kydex? If you’re carrying, do you draw on her when she draws to (presumably) light people up for disagreement?

Fourth, this is a classic example of carrying “at” someone- the pistol is a fashion statement intended as a threat and a declaration, not a serious tool. Retention, access and even possession are all horribly ignored here- if this were a rowdy crowd, it’s very easy to see her holster simply getting ripped away, gun and all.

Without stoking political tensions, this is exactly what those last few threads should have been more about. There is absolutely a legitimate reason to carry at a protest or in public, especially in a world where Karens and Keiths are taking their Magic Speaking Rock Sigs into protests to make themselves heard or just trying to crowd-surf their F-350s. But doing it with larger guns, visibly, etc very rapidly puts you on the side of **someone**…be it a self-appointed “guardian”, the cops, counter-protesters, etc. That’s usually a silly thing to do.

In this case, it immediately identifies Karen as a threat to pretty much everyone because she’s got gun-touchy hands, a visible weapon, agitation and strong Karen vibes. No bueno. When we see people bragging about carrying semi-concealed or openly, remember, attitude and your choices matter way more than ammo capacity, caliber or any hardware.

IMO, these are the perfect times for a concealed IWB 1911, revolver or similar that you can hide readily in a good, well-retained holster and more importantly avoid being swarmed or boxed in…and not touch unless absolutely necessary.
 
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The above situation is exactly why all of this matters. Honestly, the peacekeeper wasn’t wrong to draw, and possibly even fire. Letting the rifle-toting active shooter engage the crowd will definitely result in fatalities, likely a lot of them, at least until that first 30 rounds is gone. Milliseconds matter here, but so does accuracy. Tragically, in this case, it seems one or more rounds missed and hit someone. I don’t think it’s the guardian’s fault, but at the same time, they have to live with that. With that being said, this is also extremely relevant to protecting ourselves and our communities…these defenders were likely the only people who **could** act in the relevant timeframe, and they did. Always be carrying!
 
I had my S&W model 59 with me at the "No Kings" rally I attended at the Capitol building in Cheyenne.
It was holstered in the front pouch of my pack along with two extra mags with the thumb strap unsnapped, a round chambered, and the de-cocker in the safe position.
Fortunately there was no need to pull it out and the pack just sat between my feet as I relaxed in my folding camp chair in the shade of a tree sipping water and watching the girls walk by. :cool:
BTW: There were about 300+ "No Kings" protesters on one side of the street that runs in front of the Capitol and about 100+ counter protesters on the other side of the street.
Lots of cheering and yelling but way less than at the "Border War" football games between Wyoming and Colorado or Nebraska universities. :)
 
The above situation is exactly why all of this matters. Honestly, the peacekeeper wasn’t wrong to draw, and possibly even fire. Letting the rifle-toting active shooter engage the crowd will definitely result in fatalities, likely a lot of them, at least until that first 30 rounds is gone. Milliseconds matter here, but so does accuracy. Tragically, in this case, it seems one or more rounds missed and hit someone. I don’t think it’s the guardian’s fault, but at the same time, they have to live with that. With that being said, this is also extremely relevant to protecting ourselves and our communities…these defenders were likely the only people who **could** act in the relevant timeframe, and they did. Always be carrying!


You don’t think it’s the “guardian’s” fault that they missed what they were shooting at and then hit and killed an innocent bystander?
 
You don’t think it’s the “guardian’s” fault that they missed what they were shooting at and then hit and killed an innocent bystander?
Honestly? It’s the trolley problem. If you don’t shoot, an active shooter with an AR opens up on your community, friends, family, etc…that’s the “will” happen, if you don’t act.

If you do, you “might” stop a greater tragedy, and you will likely stop the mass killing…but at a risk.

It’s the use of force discussion in a nutshell. And it’s a horrible one to have to have. And tragically, here, it went wrong. But also partly-right. The victim died primarily because a would-be mass killer was sprinting toward a crowd of people and forced action with terrible consequences.
 
Honestly? It’s the trolley problem. If you don’t shoot, an active shooter with an AR opens up on your community, friends, family, etc…that’s the “will” happen, if you don’t act.

If you do, you “might” stop a greater tragedy, and you will likely stop the mass killing…but at a risk.

It’s the use of force discussion in a nutshell. And it’s a horrible one to have to have. And tragically, here, it went wrong. But also partly-right. The victim died primarily because a would-be mass killer was sprinting toward a crowd of people and forced action with terrible consequences.


I’m curious how you know that the “guardian” made an accurate assessment of another observably armed person definitively being an active shooter?

I’ve had two on duty CONUS shootings that resulted in fatalities that I was cleared by a grand jury on, so I’m familiar with use of force.

Politics of anyone aside, to say that if someone fires at another, misses, hits some one else and KILLS that person that it’s not the shooter’s FAULT, is pretty unfathomable to me. One of the most basic premises of firearms training is that one is ACCOUNTABLE for every round that leaves their muzzle.
 
I’m curious how you know that the “guardian” made an accurate assessment of another observably armed person definitively being an active shooter?

I’ve had two on duty CONUS shootings that resulted in fatalities that I was cleared by a grand jury on, so I’m familiar with use of force.

Politics of anyone aside, to say that if someone fires at another, misses, hits some one else and KILLS that person that it’s not the shooter’s FAULT, is pretty unfathomable to me. One of the most basic premises of firearms training is that one is ACCOUNTABLE for every round that leaves their muzzle.
Pretty sure a guy finding a out-of-the-way place, pulling a rifle out of a backpack (or attempting to do so), then running with it towards a crowd when confronted, is a fairly obvious sign.
 

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Well "Karen" got exactly what she deserved. Personally I think open carry is stupid and this proves why. It makes other citizens nervous. Then grabbing for the gun was extra stupid. The open carry in this case was not some hunter stopping in for a morning coffee. It was an intentional showing of I'm a badass. Time and place mean everything.

BTW, the earliest gun control laws in America were started as time and place laws. Think such places as Dodge City during cattle drives. A bunch of cowboys come into town to party get drunk and spend their pay. These events led to shooting guns here and there. Which also caused the town father's to pass gun laws of checking in your weapon at the sheriff's office.

Consider that when making an open carry evaluation.

As to the SLC shooting, any death during the commission of a crime falls to the person committing the crime. But, the peacekeeper/ guardian who killed the one person and wounded the AR-15 guy is in a world of civil suit hurt. He better pray that the AR guy has some sort of manifestos of intent to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to shoot up the protesters. He or his cash happy lawyers and family will be saying that he observed something wrong and was going to a heroic rescue and was shot, and charged by grievous mistake.

Wrongful death is expensive. You are responsible for every bullet coming out of the barrel. SouthNarc is speaking from experience with the court system. Real life is not TV. I've testified in Grand Jury's relative to police shootings. Bad things can happen. You really don't want to be there.
 
Agreed, but it’s also an extremely compressed and unforgiving time to act. If someone, particularly someone in all-black not-a-uniform with crazy hair and a non-LEO appearance, slips away, pulls out an assault rifle, refuses to drop it and sprints away when challenged, with rifle, towards a crowd…what would your conclusion be in 2025?
 
I've never felt the need to attend any kind of protest . And if I thought that a firearm might be needed , staying home would definitely be the better choice .
 
Agreed, but it’s also an extremely compressed and unforgiving time to act. If someone, particularly someone in all-black not-a-uniform with crazy hair and a non-LEO appearance, slips away, pulls out an assault rifle, refuses to drop it and sprints away when challenged, with rifle, towards a crowd…what would your conclusion be in 2025?
That I need to be somewhere else . . .
 
That I need to be somewhere else . . .
Definitely a very fair choice, and I think it’s one that those people are going to have to wrestle with for a long time. It’s the ultimate no win scenario, especially if your friends and family are in that crowd. Not exclusive to protest either – for example, a shooting at a theater or a store could open the exact same can of worms.
 
Agreed, but it’s also an extremely compressed and unforgiving time to act. If someone, particularly someone in all-black not-a-uniform with crazy hair and a non-LEO appearance, slips away, pulls out an assault rifle, refuses to drop it and sprints away when challenged, with rifle, towards a crowd…what would your conclusion be in 2025?

Your conclusion, my conclusion doesn't mean a thing. The conclusion in both a criminal and civil court by a jury who have been presented with viable opposing facts is what matters.

"He was a First Class boy scout with a interest in law enforcement as his only ambition, to help others."
"He rescued injured puppies and nurtured them back to health."
"He always helped old Mrs Smith with her groceries! "

How much will all those lawyers cost? This is reality in the system. How many times have you testified in court as an expert witness? An arresting officer, based on ____ years of experience? Questioned by a highly paid landshark lawyer? Then it gets judged by 12 honest jurors who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.
 

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