H-110, Chronographing, and Gamma Rays

[semperfi71]

Howdy,

Today I went to the range and load-tested for velocity and pressure my M28-2 4 inch and the Sierra 140 grain jacketed hollow cavity in .357 magnum cases with H-110 and the CCI 550 primer. My chronograph was set up about 6 to 8 feet in front of my shooting point.

My range is south of Albuquerque which is south of the International Airport and Kirtland AFB. At Kirtland they do ALL KINDS OF STUFF with all kinds of “stuff”. Sandia Labs is also there and THEY do all kinds of stuff with all kinds of “stuff”.

After I was all set up and ready to shoot/chronograph a fellow shooter walked over and told me how he had problems with Kirtland AFB and their radar interfering with his chronograph in the past. He said that before he would shoot over his chronograph, it would on its own, register a velocity of 4,000 fps; several times over during his session. He also said that when he was in a berm that was shielded from the radar site he did not have that problem. There is a visible radar site from the berm we were shooting in and he showed it to me indicating that was the one in question. He did admit that his “theory” was high in circumspection and low in true knowledge.

His chronograph is an older Chrony. Mine is a newer Chrony. Mine has never caused me any problems except too much sunlight (had to move it into the shade) and the occasional “Err1 or Err2” message. I do know that of the Chrony models I have seen, that are old, do have a tendency to do weird things. BUT, mine is new, it has a good battery, and I have never had any problems except the above mentioned.

ALSO…a few reloading manuals caution against loading H-110 to any amount too low from the maximum listed load. However other manuals do not seem to heed this statement and they start loads quite a ways down the pike from the maximum load. Winchester manuals, utilizing W-296 data (which is reported to be H-110…or vicey/versi), will state never to reduce the load below the singular load they show. I add this here because you will see where I started and where I ended.

Here’s my results. Wind was essentially calm, sky overcast, temps at about 45ish. Velocities are fps.

15.0 grains: 441.6, 870.9, 607.9, 941.7, 749.5
15.5 grains: 985.1, 1016, 1065, 582.1, 1025
16.0 grains: 635.4, 1008, 662.6, 1031, 411.9
16.5 grains: 1009, Err2, 1012, 955.1, 835.8
17.0 grains: 1087, 804.5, 997.6, 785.7, 1090
17.5 grains: 1081, 1101, 1093, 1141, 995.5
18.0 grains: 1171, 1132, 1113, 1109, 1107
18.5 grains: 1240, 1072, Err1, 1195, 1061
19.0 grains: 1235, 1246, 1226, 1270, 1170
19.5 grains: 1289, 1254, 1269, 1333, 1338

The brass for these loads has been loaded as much as 14 times, with either low velocity loads or full house loads. With the 19.5 grain load I experienced normal fired-primer appearance and the cases were just a tad bit sticky in extraction. And a many-times-reloaded case will SUPPOSEDLY suffer from lack of ductility due to work-hardening and therefore, after expansion, perhaps stay expanded causing sticky expansion…SUPPOSEDLY.

Note that I extracted my data from 3 manuals each of; Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Hodgdon’s. And of course my disclaimer: IF YOU USE THIS DATA AND SCREW SOMETHING UP, I AIN"T AT FAULT!

The listed lower velocity loads are not typos. And the “perceived” recoil was the same over the entire load string. I.E. all of the 15.0 grain loads displayed the same perceived recoil, as did each and every other string.

So, what I find interesting is the wide variances of supposed velocities below 18.0 grain loads. Maybe the manuals which suggest NOT going below the only, singular load listed are correct?

Perhaps my Chrony should have been placed further out from the firing point? Perhaps muzzle flash (H-110 is known for excessive flash) caused some issues. I know black powder can. But then why at the lower velocities only while at the higher velocities I got more consistent results, although lower than “book” velocities.

Or maybe the radar/gamma rays/radiation/plasma-jet-force rays from the AFB/LABS caused the velocity variances and they finished their tests before I finished mine and then my Chrony returned back to its reliable self. (insert chuckling)

Or…someone “over there” was watching me and deliberately aiming a laser gun at my Chrony when my back was turned!! (loud guffaw!)

Interesting as well was the low velocities, at the high end loads, versus most of the manuals. Of course I was shooting a 4 inch barrel and most manuals use 6 inch (or longer) revolver barrels or even longer pressure test barrels. I do know that velocities can definitively vary between “their” manual, my weapon, yours, and Uncle Albert’s. BUT, to be as low as mine when the manuals indicate a much higher velocity?

I may “up the load” and chronograph the even “hotter loads” and see what happens. Or I might stay put. The load of 19.5 grains was the “most” maximum load I found and several manuals listed about 17.0 or 17.5 grains as their maximum load. My maximum load did not appear to be maximum for my specific pistol.

If I do load up to a higher load I promise to be careful.

If my Chrony was working properly what this illustrates is that ALL reloading manuals are guides only and one should have a chronograph in their possession when working up loads for pressure and velocity. As cheap as they are today all reloaders should have one.

 

[mnhntr]

What was the OAL on your loads? I use the same bullets and just bought the H110 to try but have not tried it yet.

 

[semperfi71]

Hi mnhntr,

I always load handgun bullets to the cannelure and crimp well. Overall length (OAL) is then dictated by the location of that cannelure.

Regards.

 

[Paul5388]

I have noticed similar results from my 6" M28-2 using different powder. There seems to be one and maybe two chambers that run an appreciable amount slower than the other chambers. That's with the chronograph set at 15 feet, so muzzle blast shouldn't be an issue. Using the same chamber for all shots would eliminate that situation.

Speer #10 says you should have gotten 1446 fps from their comparable bullet and 19.5 gr, but that was from a 6" barrel and it's an average. Speer #13 has dropped the load to 18.0 gr and says you can get 1367 fps average, again from a 6" barrel.

 

[alwslate]

I have an Alpha Chrony and it is basically useless with handgun rounds.
The reason you are getting eratic readings is that the sensors are being
triggered by the muzzle blast or the flash. 6-8 feet is too close for the
Chrony. I called them and they said to move it farther away but the
problem persisted. I bought a ProChrono Pal and it works better when
clocking handgun rounds. I still had the problem some of the time until
I moved it out to about 12 feet with the 357 and full power loads. I
have set them up in tandem with the Chrony behind the Pal about 15
ft from the muzzle and still get about 50% eratic readings from the
Chrony.

 

[Suwannee Tim]

Looking at your data I see the lower charge weight shows more variability. I think the data is correct. It is possible that the radar is interfering but unlikely. Try another load, something mild with fast powder in the same location.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Something to think about from our perspective

Manuals. It seems that this comes up a lot when folks are trying to get new loads. "Which ones to use?" Seems to be the pertinent question. I always tell folks to use the powder manufacturer's data to start with. Since they "made" the powder, they are going to be infinitely more informed with it's designed characteristics. They know what they made it to do. Can you open a can of beans with a knife? Sure, but it is much simpler to use the method designed to do the job, a can opener.

It is the "opinion" of Hodgdon not to download H110/W296. I respect that opinion. I have a Marine analogy that we both would understand.

Say you wanted to know how to do something concerning Marine Corps protocol. Where would you find the official stance on that issue? In the "Guidebook for Marines", right? What if you went to a certain duty post that had a different standard? It may be the only place in the Corps that you could do it. Case in point: Low quarter steel toes boots with utilities (1970's era green work clothes) were fine to wear on an "Airdale" base but were not allowed on a "normal" installation.

My analogy is this, the "manuals" may work for applications in their certain labs but the final word would be from the "main manual", or manufacturer.

 

[semperfi71]

Semper fi smith crazy,

Utilities it was, now its cammies and they wear them everywhere which is disgusting to me...BUT.

You are correct, always start with the manufacturers data. They made it, they have to vouch for it...although I am getting mixed messages from Alliant about their Blue dot.

I have at least three and sometimes four of the manuals/pamphlets from the powder companies as well as two or three manuals from the bullets/powder makers/suppliers.

W-296 made by Winchester and their manuals always stated, "Use this load only."

H-110 made/imported/bought from somewhere else...has always showed starting loads and maximum loads in their manuals [I have three].

Which begs another question. Elsewhere I stoked the fire on, "W-296 and H-110 are different". Reports for years said they are exactly the same. However the two different suppliers list different data...always.

I suspect my minor test results and the wide varieties of velocities was caused by either; [1] too close to the chronograph, or [2] the lower loadings of H-110 are indeed too low and therefore the "erraticity" [I just invented a word!] of the velocities. As I got higher in load density I got consistent readings.

 

[Culina]

I aint no rocket scientist but I believe the chrony works on optical principles thus the white screen and not radar

 

[Skip Sackett]

SemperFi,
Check out the data now.

Hodgdon website has both powders exactly the same in pressure, velocity and load weight.

 

[semperfi71]

smith crazy, correct I noticed that last night as well.

 

[Dragon88]

Your lowest charge there is downloaded over 12% from Hodgdon's data. Hodgdon recommends reducing no more than 3% for H110/W296. Your highest charge there is .5gr over Hodgdon's max load. Are you comfortable shooting loads like that?

 

[Skip Sackett]

There is little danger in heavy loads with slow powders.

Your lowest charge there is downloaded over 12% from Hodgdon's data. Hodgdon recommends reducing no more than 3% for H110/W296. Your highest charge there is .5gr over Hodgdon's max load. Are you comfortable shooting loads like that?

Dragon,
I have used a lot of powders that a .5gr over charge will most likely put pieces of the firearm in a part of your body. H110/W296 isn't one of them in my opinion.

Look at the case fill of the maximum charge of H110/W296. 18 or 19 gr in a 357mag case? Well, I can tell you from experience, you aren't going to get much more in there and still crimp a bullet in place. Look at the pressure that those loads generate. 35,000CUP or PSI (or whatever). Put another .5gr on top of that and you get to 40,000CUP or PSI (or whatever). Not enough pressure to do instantaneous damage to most 357mag or 44mag revolvers, at least in my opinion.

Gonna give you lots of FLASH and BANG though! You can bet on that!

The danger comes from putting that much powder in of a faster powder that generates twice, maybe 3 times, that amount of pressure. Take Bullseye for example. The maximum load in a 357mag and a 158gr LSWC is 4.8gr. I know for a fact that you can get that much more of that powder in the case and still seat a bullet. Alliant doesn't give the pressure for their maximum load but, they know the maximum SAAMI pressure is 42,000CUP and 35,000PSI, and I doubt that their load is going to be over that. What happens if you put that much more in the case, say a double charge? Exponential pressure increases.

Much more dangerous to try to make a fast powder perform like a slow one in a magnum than over charging a magnum with a "magnum" powder.

FWIW

 

[semperfi71]

Dragon88,

My data came from 3 manuals each of Sierra, Hornady, Speer, and Hodgdon's. And online. The data in these manuals deviates a lot. I used a minimum that was published and a maximum that was published.

I load .5 grains at a time and now shoot over a chronograph. The signs I look for are: flattened primers, sticky cases, and the velocities of the chronograph. In my hottest load here I got sticky cases in about two out of five cases fired. Primers were okay and the velocities are what I published.

I also will say here, and I do not intend to encourage loading OVER the suggested manual loads, but, if your handgun can be different from the manual's handgun then your maximum load just might be more than theirs...or less. But one must be cautious in pursueing that line.

I do not care to load to the absolute maximum, it is hard on the pistol, dangerous if a mistake is made, and not necessary in killing power. A load 100 fps slower than the maximum will kill just as well.

 

[Scrapper]

I do not care to load to the absolute maximum, it is hard on the pistol, dangerous if a mistake is made, and not necessary in killing power. A load 100 fps slower than the maximum will kill just as well.

I agree here. I'm using the minimum Hornady loading of W296 and H110 w/200gn FTX for the 460 Magnum and both for me are the same as far as accuracy and potentcy. However I have not Chrono'ed or done a penetration test on these but I sure do feel that if I did they would work fine and kill with a well placed shot just as they we're designed. I will test these eventually.

I will add that even on the lowest side of the loading all the powders I used (Blue Dot, W296, H110) Flattened my primers and as per a Hornady Tech that is normal for the high pressures the 460 Mag runs. Also it was the only sign of high pressure I had which did not alarm me as I do have experience with high pressures in various applications.