Hard cast vs swaged bullets

[mtgianni]

Having seen bullets keyhole at 25 yards I would guess it is much more than a learn to shoot situation.

 

[elpac3]

I shoot both hard cast and swagged 148 grain HBWC in my 14-3 PPC revolver and the hard cast 170 grain Keith in my model 19 4". I have found the best accuracy with the hard cast comes they are pushed hard. Best accuracy so far has been with 13 grains of 2400 ( about 1160 FPS) and a good roll crimp. Will group under 2" all day at 25 yards. The 14 will shoot the 148 HBWC 2" all day at 50 yards.

Lots of factors could be coming into play with your results including cylinder throats, cast bullet size etc. Had some issues with the 170's when I tried shooting them slow, groups were nothing to write home about but dramatically improved as the velocity (pressure) was increased .

 

[Fishslayer]

Imagine a 1000 158gr LSWC for $2!

I think I will cast my own, thanks.

My friend & I recently started casting our own partly due the political climate in Kalifornistan.

Free lead isn't really available here but even at $1.00/lb we can cast a 230gr .452" boolit for 3-ish cents a pop. We also powdercoat so hardness isn't really all that important. If we need harder alloy a local club sells reclaimed bird shot from their trap range for fairly cheap.

Most importantly in this state we are free from worry about any per bullet "public safety tax" that they have actually discussed in the past.

 

[Wise_A]

Well, that's kind of an oddball first post, in a 6 year old thread.

If that post was any more full of Bravo Sierra, the text would be brown.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I both cast and swage my own.My swaged and cast bullets for target work are aprox 5 to 6BHN.Up to 900 to 1000fps,no leading problem with the swagwd.My cast run aprox 11 to 14 BHN.I can shoot full magnum with them(some with and some without GC) and in all exept one(a recently acquired mod 629 .44Mag at 1250fps)no leading.The first thing I'll be doing is measure the throats and I'm 90% sure that's where I'll find the problem and then apply the cure to the 629.
I actually find that people shoot too hard lead in their guns.The softer lead bumps up to fit the throats of the cylinder and obturates the rushing gas to where they belong;behind the bullet.
Sometimes,too hard a bullet will only contribute to leading by not bumping the diameter up,letting the gases pass between the bullet and bore.Result:lots of fun at home if scrubbing a bore is your definition of having a good time;not my cup of tea!
Qc.

 

[Rule3]

I'm always amazed at people who talk about group size at 25 yards and less. I have trouble finding a bullet that won't group at 25 yards or less. Maybe you ought to work on your shooting skills before you worry about what is most accurate.
If your talking about 50 yard groups out of your pistol now you should be concerned with group size. I worked for 7 years as a full time range instructor for a police academy and I only know of a few men/women that can shoot up to the accuracy of their guns. If you have a handgun that won't shoot a one inch group at 25 yards with any ammo then throw the gun away or learn to shoot. I only consider myself a "good" shooter and I can take any piece of **** handgun and benches it for a one inch group.

Well, most of the "OldFarts" at our range can not get 1" groups at 10 yards. So we all must suk or have bad guns.

Wilson Combat "warranties" 1" at 25 yards with a $5,000 1911. Must be in a ransom rest.

 

[rwsmith]

The swaged HBWC..

The swaged HBWC is about as accurate as any bullet out there. A slow, heavy bullet is pretty much the norm for accuracy.

 

[SMSgt]

It is my understanding that sizing bullets to fit chamber throats is about accuracy, not leading. Sizing to fit the throat keeps the bullet from getting crooked when it enters the forcing cone.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

It is my understanding that sizing bullets to fit chamber throats is about accuracy, not leading. Sizing to fit the throat keeps the bullet from getting crooked when it enters the forcing cone.

Right!But leading is counterproductive to accuracy.I agree with you that it is not the sole factor but I stick to the fact that is is one of utmost importance.
Qc

 

[Nevada Ed]

That is some really great powder for lead and I also liked
Nitro 100 for my 12 Ga. trap loads.

Only problem the bottles got less powder over the years and the price keep getting higher.

I finally moved on to another brand of powder.

It also sounds like your weapon might like .358 dia. lead bullets.
My M19 liked the soft Speer 158gr in RN or swc styles.

Good shooting.

 

[jtcarm]

Hard cast is ****. The bullet has to fit your chamber throats. Otherwise softer is better because it'll expand & fill the throats.


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[mtgianni]

Hard cast is ****. The bullet has to fit your chamber throats. Otherwise softer is better because it'll expand & fill the throats.


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Elmer loved Hardcast, the only thing is he considered it to be 1 in 10 tin to lead or 1 in 12 instead of his usual 1 in 16 or 1 in 20. It is all terms but if it doesn't fit the throat you may just as well use a slingshot.

 

[rwsmith]

The main two things about swaged.....

Don't push them over about 950 fps or they will lead.

Soft swaged very easily conforms to the diameter of a barrel so it is very easy to obtain accurate loads. I think for soft swaged about .002 over barrel dia. is ideal, but it doesn't hurt to try anything

BTW The swaged HBWCs are inherently about the most accurate bullet in most any gun without a lot of fine tuning in that the skirt of the bullet expands to fit any barrel. Slick, huh?

When I decide that I want accuracy over muzzle energy, velocity and recoil I shoot Speer or Hornady (and others) swaged HBWCs. A soft, heavy bullet lofted at slow velocity is a pretty good formula for accuracy. In semis, the swaged SWC with a light load is often tops.

 

[jtcarm]

Elmer loved Hardcast, the only thing is he considered it to be 1 in 10 tin to lead or 1 in 12 instead of his usual 1 in 16 or 1 in 20. It is all terms but if it doesn't fit the throat you may just as well use a slingshot.

Exactly.

"Hard" had a different meaning when people were alloying tin to pure lead with no antimony.

A softer bullet can get away with being slightly undersized if the load develops enough pressure to expand the base to fit the throats.

 

[41 fan]

Many commercial casters will size bullets to your request. Dean

 

[mikld]

I don't remember the term "hard cast" when I started shooting cast bullets about 35 years ago. Seems to be a recent buzzword mostly used by newer users of cast bullets. I don't believe there is a standard designation of "hard" (is that 16 BHN? or 18 BHN? or mebbe 20 BHN?) or "soft (8 BHN? or 10 BHN, or 12 BHN?). From my reading Keith did not use "hard cast" as many of his alloys were designated by lead to tin ratio (20-1, 16-1). The term is jst used to designate cast bullets from swaged bullets that has gotten to be "the" term for cast bullets.

From the OPs first post, I'd say he was shooting undersized bullets to get the reported 6" @ 25 accuracy. Yes S&W does know more about making barrels than most reloaders, but knowing exactly what your gun measures is essential ( sizing to cylinder throat is 99% for clean shooting, not alignment or "accuracy").

 

[38SPL HV]

I like Speer 158 gr LSWC in my 38 Spl +P loadings - they pretty much duplicate the velocities (confirmed through chronograph) of factory Rem/Win/Fed +P 158 gr LHP loadings. Speer do not lead like the factory stuff and are extremely accurate; more accurate than cast bullets at similar velocities.

My 38-44 loads used 150 gr to 158 gr cast bullets (approx. 1,100 fps from 6 inch).