Hard primers?

[mainegrw]

Last weekend I picked up an old Model 10-8 from my LGS, and loaded up some 38 special to run through it. I put together two separate loads, one 50 round batch using 158gr LSWCs, and the another using 125gr JHPs (remnants of my 38 cal bullet stash). Both loads used Ramshot True Blue powder and CCI 500 small pistol primers, and both were loaded into reclaimed brass, American Eagle and Gecco brand.

When I went to the range yesterday, I found myself having quite a bit of trouble with light primer strikes on my reloaded ammo out of both batches. The light strikes occurred when the revolver was fired DA, and didn’t appear to have the same problem in SA, and would occur on 1 to 2 shots per cylinder. Restriking a second time usually would ignite the round, with only one case where a third strike was needed to achieve ignition.


An initial analysis on the situation was that this was a mechanical or functional problem with my revolver. My first thought was to check that the strain screw was tight and it indeed was, and there’s no sign of modification to the screw or mainspring (something I look for before purchase usually), that would cause light striking. I didn’t actually suspect that any of these things could be wrong as the gun has the appropriate trigger pull weight suggesting no modifications were ever made. My next thought was to check the firing pin, and it too was in good shape as well. Additionally, I did visually inspect the distance that the pin extends through the breech face when fired, and it definitely reaching the primers. I should also note that I did shoot a couple boxes of factory loaded American Eagle 38 special 158gr FMJ through this gun, almost completely in DA only without a single light strike as well.

So, ruling out mechanical issues with the gun, I am left with my ammo. I am a habitual user of CCI 500 and 550 primers, and have never had a light striking issue with any of them before. I have been using primers from the same case for 9mm loads, and my Sig P226 ignites them just fine, it just seems that the model 10 in DA cannot do so reliably for some reason.

So the question is, do I have a batch of primers that are extra hard for some reason? Has anyone experienced the same sort of thing happen to them?

Any thought or suggestions are greatly appreciated, thanks!




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[WR Moore]

Did you measure the distance the firing pin protrudes from the breech? Should be about 1/16". Endplay of the cylinder OK? I do dimly recall some noise about issues with the frame mounted firing pins. Extra length aftermarket are available.

Someone might have changed the mainspring out. Factory springs are fairly cheap. If you've got a trigger scale, hook the end.....just under the hammer nose if you've got one, in the notch under that area if not. While holding the trigger all the way back (so you're only measuring the mainspring tension), it should take at least 40 oz to pull the hammer back in case one, 48 oz if lower on the hammer. Slightly short strain screws aren't unknown from the factory.

Finally, user error: If you try to finesse the trigger stroke while getting the sights just so, there's a tendency of the finger not to pull the trigger all the way back, even to let it go slightly forward after hammer release. This can allow the rebound slide to creep forward and brake the hammer fall, causing a misfire. And, you can do this with the M&P semi series too. BTDT on both.

BTW, all this is assuming that you seated your primers all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. None of this touchy-feely stuff, get them to the bottom. FWIW, Federal primers are generally the most sensitive. They're what I suggest/use in tuned revolvers. The fact that you got a misfire with AE factory suggests it's not this.

 

[Rule3]

This "topic" comes up a lot.

Very rarely is it "faulty" primers, They are very reliable

The fact that factory ammo went bang usually means improper primer seating

Do you have another 38/357 revolver? Try your ammo in it.

If still in doubt a simple replace hammer and rebound spring would be next.

 

[4barrel]

Get a fired primer and place under the strain screw for a start. The hammer doesn't go back as for in double action. It fixed my last purchase. I had to remove the side plate and stocks but it was a simple fix. You may wish to take a photo of the inside after removing the plate. I learned this trick on the forum a few years ago. Primers need to be at least level with the case. There are lots of primer topics at the very bottom of this page.

 

[old&slow]

Oh NO !!! another hard primer post

Primer comparison question

Sounds like you checked the right stuff ,, strain screw ,, defective firing pin ,, high primers,, after market or modified parts..
( might also check / clean and make sure there is nothing keeping the hammer from a full hit on the primers..)

However you did say they worked with American Eagle ammo ?

Isn't American Eagle ammo made by Federal ??

OK ,,, I'm putting down the key board and backing away slowly..

 

[mainegrw]

Did you measure the distance the firing pin protrudes from the breech? Should be about 1/16". Endplay of the cylinder OK? I do dimly recall some noise about issues with the frame mounted firing pins. Extra length aftermarket are available.

Someone might have changed the mainspring out. Factory springs are fairly cheap. If you've got a trigger scale, hook the end.....just under the hammer nose if you've got one, in the notch under that area if not. While holding the trigger all the way back (so you're only measuring the mainspring tension), it should take at least 40 oz to pull the hammer back in case one, 48 oz if lower on the hammer. Slightly short strain screws aren't unknown from the factory.

Finally, user error: If you try to finesse the trigger stroke while getting the sights just so, there's a tendency of the finger not to pull the trigger all the way back, even to let it go slightly forward after hammer release. This can allow the rebound slide to creep forward and brake the hammer fall, causing a misfire. And, you can do this with the M&P semi series too. BTDT on both.

BTW, all this is assuming that you seated your primers all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket. None of this touchy-feely stuff, get them to the bottom. FWIW, Federal primers are generally the most sensitive. They're what I suggest/use in tuned revolvers. The fact that you got a misfire with AE factory suggests it's not this.

Thanks for the response, I have done cursory checks on much of the items you have suggested, however I don’t suspect the gun to be the problem here, as, and I may have been a little unclear about this, the gun fires fine in SA or DA with factory loaded ammo.

There are however signs that someone had taken the side plate off at some point, but everything appears original and correct, sporting none of the usual hallmarks or a tuned or polished action. I suspect this model 10 was a duty piece, and saw more time in a holster than it did on the firing line. Lock up is still reasonably tight, there’s no push of or end shake, and really the only true signs of age is a loss of bluing anywhere a leather holster would make contact with the frame and barrel. Otherwise she shoots beautiful, tight groups with factory ammo and my reloads when they ignite.

This is a six shot group from last night, distance was a little beyond 10 yards indoors and utilized my 158gr LSWC loading. All shots were fired double action with only one single light strike.

I’ve put thought into your statement about user error, and there could be merit to the concept, however I have been shooting DA revolvers for quite some time, and never have had such issues before. I do spend a lot of time on and off the range working on my trigger pull consistency as well. The only DA revolver I’ve had issues with recently was a new production model 64 I picked up used, and had the action lock up rock solid on every other pull. I had thought that maybe I wasn’t following through on my trigger pull or release, and tried for week or so to figure out what was wrong before returning the gun to the dealer, who was also able to replicate my problem, and offered me credit toward something else.


So this leads me to the last suggestion you made: my primer seating. This could very well be where the problem lies, though I have been using the same RCBS single stage press, vintage Lee dies, and, in some cases, the same brass for a few years now with many different guns (Yes, I do inspect, measure and trim the brass as necessary), and without light strike issues. The problem that I do have with the particular 38 die set I have however lies with the primer seating. When seating primers for 38 or 357, the seating tool will sometimes get hung up on the shell holder and won’t push the primer all the way in. Early on in my reloading I actually had issues with the primer tool flipping the primers upside down when it caught the shell holder and then sprung loose, often ending with me wearing a primer upside down. I have however since learned how to prevent the flipping from happening, but the tool does still hang up from time to time.

I haven’t ever thought about the hang up affecting the seat depth of the primers, as I usually give them a good hard push once the tools properly lined up, so much so that in past batches with Winchester WSP primers, I’ve actually deformed the primer face a small amount in doing so. Whereas I am careful not to put too much pressure as to deform the primer, I’ve always thought I was seating them properly to an appropriate depth, maybe not? I suppose it’s worth analyzing next time I load a batch...







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[august1410]

I vote for primer seating. I had a similar issue with a 10-6 and realized I had not seated the primers with enough "oomph".

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

Shallow primer seating.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

 

[bd629DX]

I've had this problem before. A local gunsmith that used to build PPC guns explained it to me-
Under DA the action does not pull the hammer back as far before releasing it so the primers are not hit as hard. And CCI primers are harder than other brands. So combine those 2 things and you can have misfires in DA. In single action they will work fine. Choose another brand of primers for loads you will use in DA.

 

[RGVshooter]

For what it's worth I have a Police trade 10-8 4" barrel. The only problems I've encountered with it is it doesnt like cheap Monarch brand ammo. I fire off a couple rounds every now & then the cylinder would jam. Found out the primers were backing out.

Now back to this issue. I use only Winchester WSP primers. I used to use CCI 500 & Remington 1-1/2 small pistol primers but with both of those I'd get maybe a light strike 1 out of 100. With the Winchester wsp, I get 100% reliability.

 

[old&slow]

t


""So this leads me to the last suggestion you made: my primer seating. This could very well be where the problem lies, The problem that I do have with the particular 38 die set I have however lies with the primer seating. When seating primers for 38 or 357, the seating tool will sometimes get hung up on the shell holder and won’t push the primer all the way in.""



Primer seating sounds like a good place to start looking. A couple years ago I started getting some light strikes. Had me scratching my head for awhile.. Turned out to be a screw on the under side of my Dillon what worked loose and wasn't letting the primer fully seat..
BTW, nice group , good shooting.

 

[gwpercle]

Unless the primers are bottomed out in the pocket...even if this means seating them below flush , you will have primer problems.
Very easy to fix .... hand priming tool solved all my primer problems, I no longer prime on the press.
Gary

 

[DWalt]

With any revolver which has not had its hammer spring messed with (including backing out the spring tension screw), there should be no misfires with any primer brand. Primers less than fully seated can cause occasional misfires. Hammer springs can weaken over time, but that is more common with Colt springs than S&W.

 

[rwsmith]

Well, in 40 years time.....

With any revolver which has not had its hammer spring messed with (including backing out the spring tension screw), there should be no misfires with any primer brand. Primers less than fully seated can cause occasional misfires. Hammer springs can weaken over time, but that is more common with Colt springs than S&W.

...I've had a few duds with a sharp impressions from the firing pin both in reloaded and factory ammo.

 

[USSR]

Very easy to fix .... hand priming tool...

Yep. In the NRA Metallic Cartridge Reloading Course I teach, I strongly suggest using a hand primer due to the superior "feel" you get when seating primers.

Don

 

[SMSgt]

I used to have the old-style Lee hand primer and I used it until it would barely seat a primer flush and sometimes not quite flush, much less bottom them out in the primer pocket.

Despite the priming tool failing to fully seat primers, no matter what brand, what type, or what gun I fired the rounds in--they all went bang on first try. Every last one of them.

Light strikes are a gun issue.

 

[rwsmith]

Now I HAVE heard....

I've heard of some foreign primers being soft enough to cause problems with flowing around the firing pin.

 

[Electric Head]

CCI primers are some of the hardest I have used, similar to small rifle primers, which are unreliable in my experience, in double action, in a 686 / 586.

Federal small pistol primers are 100% for DA for me so far. They do flow really well too so you can tell different pressures.

Also (with a Dillon 550) I like to make sure primers are well seated, almost like crushing them in. Note: NOT whacking them in, primers are IMPACT sensitive, not pressure sensitive. Be smooth and gradual, but seat them in firmly.

 

[bigedp51]

It could also be a non-standard or modified hammer spring to lighten trigger pull.
I remember Skeeter Skelton articles where he modified the hammer springs.
They also sell reduced power hammer springs.

SMITH & WESSON K, L & N Frame Revolvers
https://www.gunsprings.com/SMITH%20&%20WESSON/K,%20L,%20&%20N%20FRAME/cID3/mID58/dID264

You can check your primers by holding a straight edge across the base of the case. Also hand priming tools give you more "feel" when seating the primers.

 

[Carrier]

I use mostly Federal and Winchester primers but have loaded many others and none of my new or older Smiths have primer issues. I put a light set of Wolf springs in a 686 and no issues with it.
All priming done on my LNL.