RM Vivas
US Veteran
I find, as I get older, my collecting tastes are changing (evolving?).
I’m known for my work on NYPD guns and I think a very large part of my place in the firearms community has come from that.
My other interest, and an interest from childhood, has been US military small arms with an emphasis on those used by the Army.
As I’ve explored other parts of the firearms world, particularly within Smith & Wesson, I’ve found other things catching my interest.
I spent about a year researching the first 500 Registered Magnums RM’s) and turned that into what I thought was a decent article for the SWCA Journal ( https://www.vivasandson.com/SWCAv58n2summer2024First500.pdf ). I read through a few thousand pages of documents and acquired a rather deep and thorough (but by -no- means complete!) understanding of the Registered Magnum and the fellow who was its creator and champion, DB Wesson. As I researched more and more on the Registered Magnums, I began to develop an appreciation for them and a desire to start collecting them. There was one problem with that:
I’m poor.
I mean, I make decent money, but a Registered Magnum that is on fire and had been used as a boat anchor starts at about $5,000 and that’s a bit more than I care to spend on a single gun. I could go RM hunting in the wild and try to catch one in a Local Gun Shop (LGS) or estate sale, but the odds are astronomical (although I did do that -once-).
There are quite a few N-frames .357 Magnums to collect: RM’s, Non-RM’s, Post-war Magnums/Pre-27’s, Model 27’s and Model 28’s. I suppose you could toss the Model 520 in there but that’s really a one off and a collection of M520’s would probably take up a large desk drawer and still have room for some letterhead and a stapler.
So, what is it about the RM that, --to me--, makes it the first choice of collectable N-frame .357’s? Well, I thought about that and it comes down to: history, documentation, rarity, variations
History – The RM has the great history of being the first .357 Magnum revolver and the standard for all that came afterwards. It was a huge deal and it had a very big ripple effect in the shooting world.
Documentation – Here is where the RM shines brightest. Typically a gun loses its identity once it gets to the dealer. The letter might read that a gun went from the factory to the Joe Blow Gun Shop and the trail ends there. With the RMs however, we have the certificates that let us know who got the gun after it went to the LGS; that’s huge! Plus, many Magnums were direct ordered from S&W and the records will show that the gun went directly from S&W to the end user. Again, huge!
Rarity – It is generally recognized that the pool of RM’s is around 5,500 or so. The rarity increases the value and makes the hunt that much sweeter.
Variations – I’m not a maths guy but someone who is once did the calculations and figured that with all the variations of the options available on the RM, one could make several thousand RM’s with no two being exactly alike. That, combined with the fact that all the options for each revolver were thoroughly documented in both factory record and the Registration Certificates, means you never have to wonder if an option or accessory is factory or not.
So, given all this it sounds like RM’s are the perfect gun to collect. Nope. Remember, I have a family, a car payment and bills to pay. $5,000 for a safe queen is something I’d love to do but, at this time, is not practical. Other people can make it happen, but most of them have a few post-nomials that make it easier (MD, PhD, Esq., etc.).
So where am I going with this?
I’m contemplating going into the pre-war .38-44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman revolvers (HD/O).
I’ve come to think of them as the poor mans RM and although they are by no means cheap, they have generally flown under the collecting radar having been eclipsed by their more flashy cousin, the RM.
In my Magnum readings one could easily see how the HD/O was really the forerunner to the RM, not just in the design and intent but in the perception by the public. Most of the early purchasers of the RM had extensive correspondence with DBW himself and very often they would mention that they already had an HD/O and were looking forward to the new iteration of it.
So how does the HD/O measure up the same meters I laid out for the RM?
History – The HD/O history isn’t as glamourous as the RM. I think the greatest effect of the HD/O is that it laid the groundwork for the RM not the least way in by proving demand for a small-bore (relative to frame size) cartridge in a large-frame gun. Its popularity in law enforcement also demonstrated that there was a demand for a hot cartridge for the nations police.
Documentation – Nothing will beat the RM for documentation. Can’t be done. However, there is something here for the HD and it really applies to all S&W revolvers of the era. S&W would -generally- not send guns directly to customers but would do so for law enforcement and military. The fellow might be a retired Colonel, a National Guard Captain, or a foot Patrolman in East Jesus, KY, or a reserve sheriffs deputy in Oregon, but if you were a military officer or LE, S&W would ship direct to you. This means that the vast majority of record entries will be to a dealer someplace. It also means that when you see an entry that reads “H.G. Fullerton” in stead of “Joe Blow Gun World” you’re on the track to that Fullerton gun being LE or military and both of those options portend well for the gun having a good history!
Rarity – Nahaus & Supica state that there were 11,111 pre-war HD’s and approx. 4,700 Outdoorsmans’. That’s approximately triple the amount of RM’s. However, from what I’ve seen and read, a fair number of those have been altered outside the factory to take .357 Magnum rounds. This is a common enough occurrence that when reading the ad copy for guns being sold, the seller will specifically state if the gun has had the cylinder reamed for magnums or not.
This makes a lot of sense. I’ve read much correspondence between the factory and HD/O owners who wanted to know if their gun could be reamed out to take Magnum cartridges. The factory response was always no and they stated that the similarity between the RM and the HD/O was in appearance only and that the metallurgy was different. I’m a little skeptical of that since the RM frames and HD/O frames ran in the same line and I somehow doubt the frames selected for RM’s were then re-heat treated or the like. Also, the number of off-the-book conversions done outside the factory is large enough to suggest that while the factory may not have approved of it, the practice was not uncommon.
The upshot of this is that these unauthorized conversions reduced the number of unaltered specimens available.
Variations – While there were dramatically fewer options available for the HD/O there were a few, enough at least to make things a bit interesting. I’ve also seen quite a number of documents on folks returning HD’s to the factory to have them made into guns that would later be better replicated in the RM line. For example, I am looking at an auction now for an HD that went back to the factory during the war and had the barrel shortened to 3.5”, Baughman-type front sigh and target rear sights (---expertly--- inletted into the frame; gorgeous work!). It’s all documented in factory records and is a nifty little gun. Went to a LE fellow.
So, there it is.
I’m continuing with my RM research along various lines, but I think my collecting work is going to start heading towards HD/O’s. I’ll still huint for an RM in the wild, bit I think the HD/O market is still viable and that they haven’t hit the stratospheric collector prices of RM’s, SAA’s and other higher profile guns.
Best,
RM Vivas
I’m known for my work on NYPD guns and I think a very large part of my place in the firearms community has come from that.
My other interest, and an interest from childhood, has been US military small arms with an emphasis on those used by the Army.
As I’ve explored other parts of the firearms world, particularly within Smith & Wesson, I’ve found other things catching my interest.
I spent about a year researching the first 500 Registered Magnums RM’s) and turned that into what I thought was a decent article for the SWCA Journal ( https://www.vivasandson.com/SWCAv58n2summer2024First500.pdf ). I read through a few thousand pages of documents and acquired a rather deep and thorough (but by -no- means complete!) understanding of the Registered Magnum and the fellow who was its creator and champion, DB Wesson. As I researched more and more on the Registered Magnums, I began to develop an appreciation for them and a desire to start collecting them. There was one problem with that:
I’m poor.
I mean, I make decent money, but a Registered Magnum that is on fire and had been used as a boat anchor starts at about $5,000 and that’s a bit more than I care to spend on a single gun. I could go RM hunting in the wild and try to catch one in a Local Gun Shop (LGS) or estate sale, but the odds are astronomical (although I did do that -once-).
There are quite a few N-frames .357 Magnums to collect: RM’s, Non-RM’s, Post-war Magnums/Pre-27’s, Model 27’s and Model 28’s. I suppose you could toss the Model 520 in there but that’s really a one off and a collection of M520’s would probably take up a large desk drawer and still have room for some letterhead and a stapler.
So, what is it about the RM that, --to me--, makes it the first choice of collectable N-frame .357’s? Well, I thought about that and it comes down to: history, documentation, rarity, variations
History – The RM has the great history of being the first .357 Magnum revolver and the standard for all that came afterwards. It was a huge deal and it had a very big ripple effect in the shooting world.
Documentation – Here is where the RM shines brightest. Typically a gun loses its identity once it gets to the dealer. The letter might read that a gun went from the factory to the Joe Blow Gun Shop and the trail ends there. With the RMs however, we have the certificates that let us know who got the gun after it went to the LGS; that’s huge! Plus, many Magnums were direct ordered from S&W and the records will show that the gun went directly from S&W to the end user. Again, huge!
Rarity – It is generally recognized that the pool of RM’s is around 5,500 or so. The rarity increases the value and makes the hunt that much sweeter.
Variations – I’m not a maths guy but someone who is once did the calculations and figured that with all the variations of the options available on the RM, one could make several thousand RM’s with no two being exactly alike. That, combined with the fact that all the options for each revolver were thoroughly documented in both factory record and the Registration Certificates, means you never have to wonder if an option or accessory is factory or not.
So, given all this it sounds like RM’s are the perfect gun to collect. Nope. Remember, I have a family, a car payment and bills to pay. $5,000 for a safe queen is something I’d love to do but, at this time, is not practical. Other people can make it happen, but most of them have a few post-nomials that make it easier (MD, PhD, Esq., etc.).
So where am I going with this?
I’m contemplating going into the pre-war .38-44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman revolvers (HD/O).
I’ve come to think of them as the poor mans RM and although they are by no means cheap, they have generally flown under the collecting radar having been eclipsed by their more flashy cousin, the RM.
In my Magnum readings one could easily see how the HD/O was really the forerunner to the RM, not just in the design and intent but in the perception by the public. Most of the early purchasers of the RM had extensive correspondence with DBW himself and very often they would mention that they already had an HD/O and were looking forward to the new iteration of it.
So how does the HD/O measure up the same meters I laid out for the RM?
History – The HD/O history isn’t as glamourous as the RM. I think the greatest effect of the HD/O is that it laid the groundwork for the RM not the least way in by proving demand for a small-bore (relative to frame size) cartridge in a large-frame gun. Its popularity in law enforcement also demonstrated that there was a demand for a hot cartridge for the nations police.
Documentation – Nothing will beat the RM for documentation. Can’t be done. However, there is something here for the HD and it really applies to all S&W revolvers of the era. S&W would -generally- not send guns directly to customers but would do so for law enforcement and military. The fellow might be a retired Colonel, a National Guard Captain, or a foot Patrolman in East Jesus, KY, or a reserve sheriffs deputy in Oregon, but if you were a military officer or LE, S&W would ship direct to you. This means that the vast majority of record entries will be to a dealer someplace. It also means that when you see an entry that reads “H.G. Fullerton” in stead of “Joe Blow Gun World” you’re on the track to that Fullerton gun being LE or military and both of those options portend well for the gun having a good history!
Rarity – Nahaus & Supica state that there were 11,111 pre-war HD’s and approx. 4,700 Outdoorsmans’. That’s approximately triple the amount of RM’s. However, from what I’ve seen and read, a fair number of those have been altered outside the factory to take .357 Magnum rounds. This is a common enough occurrence that when reading the ad copy for guns being sold, the seller will specifically state if the gun has had the cylinder reamed for magnums or not.
This makes a lot of sense. I’ve read much correspondence between the factory and HD/O owners who wanted to know if their gun could be reamed out to take Magnum cartridges. The factory response was always no and they stated that the similarity between the RM and the HD/O was in appearance only and that the metallurgy was different. I’m a little skeptical of that since the RM frames and HD/O frames ran in the same line and I somehow doubt the frames selected for RM’s were then re-heat treated or the like. Also, the number of off-the-book conversions done outside the factory is large enough to suggest that while the factory may not have approved of it, the practice was not uncommon.
The upshot of this is that these unauthorized conversions reduced the number of unaltered specimens available.
Variations – While there were dramatically fewer options available for the HD/O there were a few, enough at least to make things a bit interesting. I’ve also seen quite a number of documents on folks returning HD’s to the factory to have them made into guns that would later be better replicated in the RM line. For example, I am looking at an auction now for an HD that went back to the factory during the war and had the barrel shortened to 3.5”, Baughman-type front sigh and target rear sights (---expertly--- inletted into the frame; gorgeous work!). It’s all documented in factory records and is a nifty little gun. Went to a LE fellow.
So, there it is.
I’m continuing with my RM research along various lines, but I think my collecting work is going to start heading towards HD/O’s. I’ll still huint for an RM in the wild, bit I think the HD/O market is still viable and that they haven’t hit the stratospheric collector prices of RM’s, SAA’s and other higher profile guns.
Best,
RM Vivas
