Headspace issues? 45 acp S&W 25-2 Revolver

[chiltech500]

Just got my nice used 25-2 and and was checking headspacing using my autoloader oriented 200gr LSWC rounds and found them too wide - not sure about length yet. Was running a .473-.474 crimp. Those rounds almost fit a Ruger NMBH 45 acp, when necessary closed the cap and levered the round that was too tight, then the cylinder would spin freely.

I do not want to force fit in my target 25-2 like the Ruger.

I'm loading Bullseye load level rounds, so given that as backdrop, probably don't need a heavy roll crimp - at this point I only have a taper crimp die anyway. Have narrowed the crimp to .469-.470 and the rim isn't quite flush yet. Next I'll try .467-.468 but that sure seems like mashing that bullet.

I was hoping someone could shed some light, ideally another 25-2 owner.

 

[boatbum101]

.469 crimp is good . If rim's not flush your OAL is too long .

 

[Waywatcher]

Yeah, gotta find out the length--that could be your problem.

My Colt 1911 needs these at 1.235" COL with a 0.469" crimp to pass the plunk test in the chamber. Sure, it's an autoloader, but it's still a .45 Auto chamber we're talking about. (The plunk test meaning smoothly and freely fully chambering in the removed barrel, without added pressure.)

 

[dla]

Just got my nice used 25-2 and and was checking headspacing using my autoloader oriented 200gr LSWC rounds and found them too wide - not sure about length yet. Was running a .473-.474 crimp. Those rounds almost fit a Ruger NMBH 45 acp, when necessary closed the cap and levered the round that was too tight, then the cylinder would spin freely.

I do not want to force fit in my target 25-2 like the Ruger.

I'm loading Bullseye load level rounds, so given that as backdrop, probably don't need a heavy roll crimp - at this point I only have a taper crimp die anyway. Have narrowed the crimp to .469-.470 and the rim isn't quite flush yet. Next I'll try .467-.468 but that sure seems like mashing that bullet.

I was hoping someone could shed some light, ideally another 25-2 owner.

Not sure what "too wide" means to headspacing. Do your rounds drop in and sit on the casemouth? Or are they hitting the bullet?

You can't roll crimp - taper crimp is your only option. Your crimp is too loose anyways - tighten it to .470". You don't have bullet setback in a revolver - just bullet pull, and I seriously doubt you'll have any pull with that N-Frame and the rather anemic 45acp.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

45ACP crimp dia.

Like dla said, you shouldn't be roll crimping the 200 LSWC bullets if they don't have a cannelure/crimp groove, in which case they should be taper crimped. A roll crimp is fine with a cannelured bullet (usually for a 45 Colt & .452") and moon-clips in a 25/625. (This is the only way I can shoot Super loads in my 325NG or I have bullet jump though I usually just load them in AutoRim cases.) Are you using moon-clips or are you loading them in the chamber individually?

As far as crimp (taper) diameter, .470-.471" should suffice. You shouldn't need to go smaller, especially with a lead bullet. What dia. are your LSWCs?

In my 325NG, cartridge OAL" isn't critical like in an auto. The throats are long & mine are .4522" dia. so there's no restriction as .451" bullets drop right thru. The plunk test is meaningless in this case. However, if you'll be shooting these same rounds in an automatic, I'd stick with an OAL" that works in it, for simplicity sake, & pass the plunk test in it.
.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks so much for the replies, great information here.

As far as crimp (taper) diameter, .470-.471" should suffice. You shouldn't need to go smaller, especially with a lead bullet. What dia. are your LSWCs?

.452 on the 200 gr LSWC, I didn't refind out until last week that some casters offer different diameter bullets and I thought that .452 was standard.

In my 325NG, cartridge OAL" isn't critical like in an auto. The throats are long & mine are .4522" dia. so there's no restriction as .451" bullets drop right thru. The plunk test is meaningless in this case. However, if you'll be shooting these same rounds in an automatic, I'd stick with an OAL" that works in it, for simplicity sake, & pass the plunk test in it.

It is important for me to know that OAL isn't critical in the revolver because I was thinking like autoloader and was attempting to keep as long an OAL as possible.

The throats on the model 625/25 have a tendancy to be oversized per a fellow above and I have read that before in other places.

Maybe the OAL is the problem. I believe on some of my test rounds I had an OAL as short as 1.230 and the rim didn't look quite flush yet. Maybe that rim is resting on the casemouth and I can't see that part?

 

[epj]

You don't want a roll crimp period. Taper crimp to .469-.471.

 

[chiltech500]

Did someone above mention moon clips? On another site I believe they diagnosed my issue. The 25-2 is designed for moon clips to be used and that the rim will never be flush with the casemouth because of that. They will always ride a bit above flush. I should be quite ok if not a bit overcrimped at .466-.468 and OAL 1.235-1.240 per people in the know about the 25-2 model.

Thanks all for your help.

I have a taper crimp for 45 and only may have mentioned roll crimp because that's what I have on my .38 die set.

 

[epj]

With properly loaded ammo, the 25-2 will operate equally well with or without moon clips. With the 200 gr LSWC,'OAL should be about 1.250-1.255. The "ledge" of the bullet should be about a thumbnail above the rim. About 1/16".

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks epj. My original rounds based on my 1911 barrels were a 1.250 OAL with a .474 crimp. I wish that the 1.250 and .474 worked because then I could have just one set of 45acp's. Guys on another forum were telling me I needed a shorter OAL not overly small crimp, which I read after asking for help like on this forum. They said a .469-.470 crimp and an OAL around 1.242 were good.

I didn't realize the space between the rim and cylinder face was designed for moon clips and kept shortening the OAL and tightening the crimp till I got to the point it just wasn't flush - and shortening and tightening further had no impact - and decided to ask for help.

I think the 1.250 OAL and .474 crimp I tried initially could be pushed in further by finger pressure, but now I wonder if my memory is correct.

 

[epj]

The .474 crimp is too loose. That's probably why they had to be pushed in. They should drop in, just like a "plunk" test on an auto barrel.

 

[gwpercle]

Full and half-moon clips are required for Double action 45 acp revolvers. 45 auto-rim cases ( it's a 45 acp with a thick rim to make up for the thickness of the moon clips) will also work without moon clips but are hard to find. The Ruger is a single action revolver and doesn't require moon clips or auto rim cases. The Ruger ejector rod punches them right out. I can't believe your 25-2 didn't come with a few, but unless you are familiar with 45 acp revolvers you don't know.
Reload them as for your auto loader , they will work in the 25-2 with the moon clips, and in the 1911 and Ruger as is. When reloading for a revolver OAL is a non-issue. It doesn't feed from a magazine up a ramp and into the chamber like a 1911 does. Don't worry about it.
It's confusing but you're learning.
Gary

 

[epj]

The full or half moon clips are NOT required for the 25-2 to load and fire. They are necessary for classic ejection using the ejector rod. For casual shooting, I rarely use them. The cases will usually fall out or can be easily removed by hand. I have nothing against moon clips. I even built myself a pretty nifty mooner-demooner tool. They don't work great with SWC bullets such as I am prone to load in my .45's.

 

[fredj338]

The full or half moon clips are NOT required for the 25-2 to load and fire. They are necessary for classic ejection using the ejector rod. For casual shooting, I rarely use them. The cases will usually fall out or can be easily removed by hand. I have nothing against moon clips. I even built myself a pretty nifty mooner-demooner tool. They don't work great with SWC bullets such as I am prone to load in my .45's.

The M25 is designed to use moon clips. The fact you can get them to fire doesn't make it correct. Use the moon clips, or AR brass.
As to crimp, little to do with proper headspace unless done incorrectly. Too much crimp, too much headspace. Too little crimp, the round won't chamber. IMO, 0.469" is too much crimp with a 0.452" bullet. You are resizing the bullet at that point, accuracy will suffer. O.451" is about max with most brass & 0.452" bullet.

 

[epj]

My crimp die is set for .471-.472. Seems to work well in most .45 ACP chambers. Yes, the M25 is designed to use clips for traditional ejection. The clips should have no bearing on headspace.

 

[chiltech500]

I am hearing a .471-472 crimp and an OAL used in a 1911 should be ok. Moon clips for convenience of ejection but not necessary for accuracy?

I found with the rounds I made the model 25 was not very accurate. Someone has told me these revolvers had a problem with cylinders being too large. If this revolver does not have the capacity to produce NRA Bullseye pistol accuracy it will become a safe queen, moon clips, no moon clips or autorim cases will be irrelevant.

 

[epj]

See what it does with some good quality factory ball ammo. If it shoots good with that, then you have a load development project.

 

[FlyFish]

I am hearing a .471-472 crimp and an OAL used in a 1911 should be ok. Moon clips for convenience of ejection but not necessary for accuracy?

I found with the rounds I made the model 25 was not very accurate. Someone has told me these revolvers had a problem with cylinders being too large. If this revolver does not have the capacity to produce NRA Bullseye pistol accuracy it will become a safe queen, moon clips, no moon clips or autorim cases will be irrelevant.

I have a 25-2 from 1975, and it's one of the most, if not THE most, accurate revolver of the 3 dozen or so that I own - as in 10-ring accuracy at 25 yards if I do my part (which doesn't happen often - for me or anyone else). I've never been a fan of moon clips, so I load up .45 AR brass for it, but it will function just fine with the same .45 ACP loads that I run through my 1911s, with or without moon clips, only that you can't eject them in the normal manner without the clips of course.

My understanding of the Model 25 oversized cylinder throat issue is that is concerned only the older (as in pre-1982 or thereabouts) Model 25-5 in .45 Colt, and that was a result of the industry specs for .45 Colt changing to a smaller bullet diameter. I have one of those as well that had the oversized throats and recently had the cylinder replaced by S&W with a properly sized one for less than $200 and a 10-week wait.

 

[epj]

The 25-2 suffered from the same malady, though not every example had oversize throats. The one I bought from Handejector a few years ago had .452 throats. Some are .454, others .456+. Most all will shoot well with either ball ammo or properly sized lead.

 

[eyegots2no]

I have two 25-2's I do not have good measuring tools for ID but used various spent brass inserted from throat end and measured what did and what did not go in. MUCH USED 44 mag brass would enter just up to the rim and when I measured that i got .456+. These shoot well but they really can lead up.