Help Identify

[Vettepartz]

Let me be the first to admit that I am not knowledgeable on these older hand ejectors. Someone would possibly want to trade me one of my pistols for this gun. Neither of us really know what it is. The barrel is marked S&W .38 ctg. From his picture, shown here, I am thinking it is an early M&P of the second design. My thinking comes from looking at several books. Any help is always appreciated.

 

[Skeetr57]

It looks to me to be a British Service Revolver (BSR) from early in the 1940's. It is the same as a M&P, except for the caliber, being Cal. .38 S &W rather than .38 Special. Around 1942, the finish was changed to a Parkerized finish and the gun was sandblasted rather than polished prior to finishing.

 

[Vettepartz]

Thanks Skeetr, would there be any kind of markings on it that the British would have used?

 

[gunnails]

You should post the serial number and that will help give an better idea of ship date.

If it is a British service gun it should have a crown stamped on it and maybe some re-import markings I'm pretty sure.

 

[Vettepartz]

I am told that the serial is 753XX and that it has a 5" barrel. Any help?

 

[Absalom]

I am told that the serial is 753XX and that it has a 5" barrel. Any help?

Yes, it is definitely a "pre-Victory" BSR from 1941 in original blue finish with original-style stocks. I think you missed one digit on the serial; five digits would make no sense. Check the right inside grip panel for a matching serial number (see example below). The trigger and hammer appear different from the original case-coloring, though.

There may be acceptance stamps from Enfield on the left frame.

I just tried to win one just like that on Gunbroker and bailed out at $600. These are not often found in original condition and of interest to collectors.

 

[JSR III]

A close up photo of the butt and both sides of the barrel would help greatly.

 

[Absalom]

A close up photo of the butt and both sides of the barrel would help greatly.

I second that. Assuming from what you say that you don't have the gun, ask the present owner to take the gun to a room that's bright enough so he doesn't need to use the flash, and get a lot closer to the gun. Satellite photos make it hard to really evaluate finish and such .

 

[DWalt]

I doubt the SN is 753xx, maybe missing a digit. Given the grips on it, it makes more sense if it is 753xxx which would date it at around early 1941, making it very possible that it is a pre-Victory BSR. The correct SN will be on the butt.

 

[Vettepartz]

I do not have the gun yet, and at this point, I am trying to determine what it is to see if I want to trade. The owner just communicates by email, and is not always quick to respond. I am trying to get a value to see if a trade is plausible.

 

[JSR III]

That is understandable however, without more information we can not give you an accurate response. If the seller isn't willing to provide same, walk away. Anyone seriously interested in moving a firearm will go out of their way to provide the information needed to make an educated decision. Otherwise be wary and as I said above, walk away.

 

[Vettepartz]

Let me thank everyone here who has replied to my original post. The owner has been slow to respond and provide much info. He now tells me that the markings say ".38 Special Ctg". The first time he left out the 'Special'. Also another picture. Markings are on the right side of barrel. Is there a possibility that this may be a 1905?

 

[Absalom]

Let me thank everyone here who has replied to my original post. The owner has been slow to respond and provide much info. He now tells me that the markings say ".38 Special Ctg". The first time he left out the 'Special'. Also another picture. Markings are on the right side of barrel. Is there a possibility that this may be a 1905?

Yes, the square-butt M&P's from those decades are all 1905's; that doesn't mean much as far as narrowing down the model.

Unless it is a parts gun, the type of ejector rod tip and the grip panel style still argue for a six-digit serial number from 1940/41, except not a British Service model but a US version.

 

[Texas Star]

I'd make the owner provide a sharp, clear view of the caliber marking before buying this gun.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...closer view of the first photo...

 

[Absalom]

...closer view of the first photo...

Unfortunately, the low resolution of the original and the way the light falls on the barrel make it impossible to say anything about the caliber stamping. One would hope the seller isn't lying when he claims the barrel actually SAYS .38 Special, rather than the gun just being .38 Special by way of reamed chambers.

 

[DWalt]

" Is there a possibility that this may be a 1905?"
Yes and no. S&W dropped the Model of 1905 nomenclature just prior to WWI, and instead advertised them as being simply the Military and Police (M&P) Model. However some collectors call all of the K-frame revolvers made up to WWII the Model of 1905.

 

[Vettepartz]

Well the owner has finally agreed to meet tomorrow. I have a couple of pistols in the $400 - $500 range and he would like to trade for one of them. What exactly should I look for besides the serial # and the caliber marking?

 

[Absalom]

For that revolver to be worth 400 - 500 to me, at a minimum it would have to have all matching serial numbers on the butt, the front of the cylinder, the underside of the barrel, and stamped on the inside of the right grip panel (you need to take them off to check). The trigger and hammer should be case-colored. The rest comes down to condition of the finish, the bore, etc., for which the pictures are not really sufficient.

And the barrel stamping. If it should say .38 S&W CTG, but the gun accepts Special, it has been modified and the value drops by a few hundred dollars.

 

[Vettepartz]

I took the first picture and cropped to see the barrel marking. You can hold down the Ctrl key and press the "+" key a couple of times to enlarge. Although not very clear, I think you can make out the "Special" on the barrel marking.

 

[Absalom]

I took the first picture and cropped to see the barrel marking. You can hold down the Ctrl key and press the "+" key a couple of times to enlarge. Although not very clear, I think you can make out the "Special" on the barrel marking.

I can see it now. Seems clear that it is a Special barrel. So just check the matching serials as I pointed out to make sure it's not a replacement barrel.

As I said before, decent original-condition M&P's from that serial area are not a dime a dozen, but the gun would have to be in pretty good shape to be worth 400-500 in trade. So inspect the gun closely and also look for signs of a re-blueing, which would further reduce value.

 

[Vettepartz]

New update. I just talked on the phone to the owner and had him read me the numbers straight off of the pistol. The first number he gave me a few days ago was from inside of the crane, which I understand doesn't mean much. However, on the butt, and on the bottom of the barrel, and on the cylinder the numbers all match and are 837XXX. Big difference! I think this is the M&P Change 4, from what I see in my books. I am not sure why it would have a lanyard ring on the bottom, unless someone added that later. I will see the actual gun tomorrow, and plan on taking off the right hand grip to look for a number. I may just offer to buy it outright, but am not sure of what a fair market value would be.
Once again, thanks for the help to all who answered.

 

[Muley Gil]

When this revolver was built, S&W was in the midst of a large order of M&Ps for the British government. A number of the commercial M&Ps had lanyard loops installed.

 

[Absalom]

Usually, mistaking the number in the yoke cut-out for the serial is seriously misleading. In this case, not really. 753xxx and 837xxx are from the same year, spring 1941 vs. fall 1941, so everything we've discussed still applies, since we suspected there was a digit missing .

 

[Vettepartz]

Well I got to see the pistol today, and I ended up trading for it for a different gun that I had of lesser value. The serial numbers on the butt, barrel, cylinder, right grip, and underside of the star ejector all match. There are 2 things I am wondering about. On the cylinder, on the part that is under the star ejector, there is an "S". Also, on the top of the frame where you look down the sight line, there are two screws. Any significance to these? The barrel is 5" and trigger is serrated.
The full serial # is 837098. Does anyone have a data base on these that can tell approximate build/ship date?

 

[lebomm]

The two topstrap screws indicate that someone had some kind of aftermarket sighting device or the like attached. They pretty seriously chop the value of the gun, maybe to collector zero. Otherwise, it's a nice looking piece, and probably a good shooter. If you got it for under about $400, you did OK - under $300, very good.

JMHO,
Larry

 

[Absalom]

As Larry said, someone installed something non-factory, most probably a rear sight, on the frame and then took it off. I don't quite agree with Larry's dire assessment of the screws' impact on the gun's value; they would make a big difference if this were a high-end gun in pristine condition, but in its present nice but well-used state, they're pretty much a non-issue if they don't protrude into the sight channel or impact the cylinder below.

The finish is definitely the original 1941 Carbonia blue and looks nicely preserved, although there definitely is some odd coloration on hammer and trigger; compare to what they should look like in my third picture attached to post #6 above.

Overall, a very nice example of a "pre-Victory" M&P (and yes, the S&W historian would still call that a Model of 1905, 4th change).