Jim (Hondo44), Thanks very much for this info! The side plate does have the same part number "4304" (pics attached). I could not find anything on the back of the grips under the best of light and magnification.
Any opinion on how this revolver would have made it back to the US, if it is was intended as Brit military weapon? Are these commonly found and of any real value / interest? It fits into my hand ejector set as a different gun from the others; I am just curious if or how unique it might be as a S&W collectible.
Would a S&W letter add value and possibly more history? I will follow up on the markings article you referenced. Again, many thanks for your expertise and knowledge sharing.
Jim Miles
(soon to join!)
Jim,
They are very collectible if original and in excellent condition. But also in demand as good shooters. Although it's not collectible in present modified and worn condition, the 45 Colt chambering is a plus for shootability and finding ammo.
A letter will only reveal the date it was shipped to Remington UMC, that acted as the British procurement agent for delivery to England. It will provide a little history and that not quite 70,000 of these 2nd models were produced by S&W under contract to the Brits. Not worth the price of a letter in my opinion.
Many thousands have returned to the states officially when sold off as war surplus by the Brits thru US importers and several by other "unofficial" means such as G.I. duffel bags, etc. Many have been converted to popular US cartridges like 45 Colt and 45 ACP/AR which they shoot quite well. Making good originals that much harder to find and pricier.
Thousands never made it to England and were sold in the US as brand new over production thru S&W's regular distributors. These are easy to spot because they lack any British Import, export and/or proof house stampings.
The following history is far more detailed than you'd get in a letter and covers all versions produced:
THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group are actually 1st versions. "When" roll marked with the cal., those that are roll marked are only marked S&W 455 because all three versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the 'book name' references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name "MK II" for the "455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped "II" on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.
They are:
1. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].
The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" chambered in .455, serial number range.
*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.
There's also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5462 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5462 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.
3.A. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.
This version was referred to as the MK II revolver and stamped 'II' by the British on the left side frame like yours.
The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.
The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].
And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
3.B. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock'. "As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
11/3/15 "In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [sold in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs." Lee Jarrett
I hope this is helpful,
