Help me understand centerfire semi-autos...

[Rawhyde]

I'd like to hear what you folks have to say about centerfire semi-autos. I'm hoping somebody will help me learn and understand.

I love revolvers, especially ones made by Smith & Wesson. I'm guessing that's not exactly a shocking statement.

Back in 1985, I wanted a Python so bad I couldn't stand it. I also wanted a .45 Gold Cup just as bad. I saved my pennies and finally I had enough money. A buddy had a Python that I loved shooting, and an uncle of mine had a Gold Cup that I enjoyed as well. His Gold Cup had been shot a lot and had some minor custom work. At the time, he was into IPSC shooting.

I stood at the counter of the gun shop with $600 in my pocket, a stainless Python in one hand and a Gold Cup in the other. It was a hard decision, but I left with the Gold Cup. It was a brand new Series 80.

I shot that gun a lot over the next several months. I tried every type of factory ammo and too many different handloads to remember. The most accurate load I found was a 185g Hornady jacketed SWC over an absurdly light charge of Bullseye. It was so mild that with good lighting and a little luck, you could sometimes catch a glimpse of it in flight. (Of course, that meant a super light recoil spring was needed.) About the best group that gun ever shot was a cluster about 6" in diameter at 25 yards. More realistic ammo grouped into 10-12" clusters. That was off a rest, and it didn't matter who was doing the shooting. At the time, I could consistently shoot oil cans and clay pigeons at 40-50 yards with a .44 Magnum. In addition, that gun came with pushoff straight out of the box. I sold it a year or so later and vowed that one day, I'd own an accurate centerfire semi automatic pistol. I was a very disillusioned young man at that point. I have been permanantly soured on Colt centerfire autos.

About 10 years later, I stumbled upon a S&W Model 52 that was in beautiful shape. I bought it, and now I have an accurate semi auto.

I have a 1st gen midsize Glock in 9mm. It shot similar groups to the Gold Cup. A LEO friend who lives in metro Atlanta took it home, then over to Glock in Smyrna. They rebuilt it stem to stern for free and it now shoots much much better. I can keep a magazine full in a 5" circle at 25 yards now. Maybe that's as good as it gets....

Here's what I don't understand and need help on.

I have a S&W 14-2 that can shoot a group that I can cover with a silver dollar at 25 yards. I keep hearing from armchair commandos that I am doing something wrong if I can't make a semi auto shoot the same. Funny thing is, I can do the same with the S&W Model 52.

I had a Gold Cup, I still have a Glock .40 & 9mm, a FiveSeven, and a 92. They're all about the same accuracy wise. Good enough for defensive use, but no fun for plinking or target shooting.

What does S&W know that apparently nobody else does? What is it about a Model 52 that makes it shoot well for a revolver shooter? Can anyone make a .45 that can shoot like a 52?

I just picked up a Springfield Armory Range Officer. Shot it once in miserable and cold conditions. I have wanted a good .45 ACP for a long time. Did I get one, or set myself up for more disappointment?

Rawhyde

 

[venomballistics]

I have a springfield 1911 GI version much like your range officer without the fluff.
its function is impressive with a record of no jams since the day it came out of the factory case even during its break in period. it did however, lack reasonable accuracy through the first hundred rounds.
the issue seems to be one inherent to all recoil operated arms ... the barrel essentially floats without any solid fixed attachment point. the trick is to get it to repeat its position. seems to me that the 1911 system would lend itself well to a repeatable alignment by virtue of the radiused lugs having radiused grooves in the slide to pop into and center ... but we still have the other end of the pipe which enjoys some slop at the barrel bushing.
Its no big deal to get a new bushing with a tighter fit.
at some point in the game you start to trade off function for accuracy if you go too tight

 

[billdeserthills]

I think you need to shoot with semi-auto's that have adjustable sights and adjust them for yourself. I know my FN 5-7 is as accurate as any revolver I own, but I didn't get proficient with it overnight...same with my STI edge in .45, or my Desert Eagle 44 mag... sounds to me like you just need more practice with semi-auto

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, autos do require a little different technique than revolvers (they require a firm grip and are very sensitive to any inconsistency), but it could also be that you've just been unlucky with your particular guns.

The mid-'80s were a bad time for Colt--they had lots of labor disputes back then, and quality took a hit. Glocks and Beretta 92s are plain ol' service pistols, not purpose-built match guns like the Model 52. I don't know anything about the FN 5-7.

Accurate autos are indeed possible. Folks have been building highly accurate 1911s for comp shooting for generations now. The necessaries are well-known and widely available.

Was it me, I'd hunt up some people who have demonstrably accurate autos and see how they shoot for you. That'll tell you whether the trouble is you or your particular guns.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[m1gunner]

You got a bad Colt, don't condemn the entire design because of one lemon.

The 1911 platform is well understood by many manufacturers and Smiths. It is very capable of outstanding accuracy without becoming a jam-o-matic.

I have shot clays with my 1911 at 60 yds. Not a hit every time, but more times than not, and always lots of fun. My gun is specifically set up for reliability as the main attribute, with accuracy secondary. Am very pleased with it.

The 1911 is sensitive to the shooter. Just changing from a flat mainspring housing to arched changed the POI on mine 3" @ 20 yds.

 

[Texas Star]

I had a Gold Cup that would plant all seven shots from the magazine into a single cluster at 25 yards, firing offhand.
The ammo it liked best was Federal's 230 grain match ball.

I have owned other Colt Govt. Model .45's that would easily shoot into the bull at 25 yards, and the CZ-75B and the Browning MK III 9mm have also shot very well for me and for my son. He carried both a Brownng and a Beretta 92 in combat, and found them to be quite effective. Given good care and original manufacturers' magazines, the 9mm's were reliable, even in Iraq, where fine sand is a problem.

I do tend to shoot revolvers better in careful aimed fire, but the autos named have come very close, and that Gold Cup was shockingly accurate. But the front sight loosened, as Jeff Cooper warned that it might. Evidently, Colt took some weight out of the slide compared to the basic Govt. Model, and recoil shook the sights loose. I haven't had that happen except with that Gold Cup. I got it in the late 1960's.

T-Star

 

[H Richard]

I have never cared for the "80" series, with the piston firing pin safety in the slide and a couple extra pieces in the trigger group. I shoot a Series 70 Gold Cup, a Springfield Armory (old model I customized), and a RIA compact. All the "series 70" style lock-work. All will shoot under 3" with just about any ammo.

See if you can borrow a Series 70 Gold Cup for a trip to the range, and I bet your groups will improve.

 

[Rawhyde]

I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. I really like the 1911 style pistol. I think it's a classic design and I like the .45 ACP cartridge.

I'm want to teach myself how to shoot one, and part of that is learning what to expect from it.

I have a S&W 41. It is my favorite pistol. I know that it is much more accurate than I can see or hold. To me, that makes it an eternal challenge to see what I can teach myself to hit with it.

I have a K-38 that likewise has greater inherent accuracy than I can shoot. I'd really need a Ransom Rest to determine its capabilities, but even so, I've shot some pretty tight groups with it.

The 52 shoots almost as good as the K-38, and probably could match it with more practice and better technique. I just don't relish the idea of shooting thousands of rounds through a gun that might be difficult to find parts for. I want something I can reload for that's as accurate as a good revolver (like a 14, 686, 57, Python, etc).

I had a buddy who shoots a lot of autopistols work with me a little with grip and hand placement, and he did help me improve group sizes with a Glock, but a 4-6" group at 25 yards is about as good as either of us could coax from it.

With the revolvers or the 41, if the group isn't a ragged hole, then I know that I messed up. What size of group is reasonable to expect from a .45?

 

[oldman45]

Sir, I can almost relate to what you say.

I have a couple of Colts and their accuracy is deplorable. Sure, I can hit a man sized target at 25 feet but I want to hit a six inch pie plate at that distance.

Next is you shooting a 1911. I love the 1911 pistol. It may sound stupid but a person has to learn to shoot a 1911. It takes a lot of controlled practice. The same with a snubby revolver. They are great guns but only when used by experienced hands. The 1911 is not just another semi autoloader. You have to get use to the feel, the trigger, the grip, the safety, the sights and even the sound. A .45acp makes a different sound and it requires getting accustomed to hearing.

Now we get to S&W accuracy. They began making a 1911 several years ago but they began making a quality 1911 only a couple years ago. I have two and now have three friends and a lawyer that owns recentl production 1911 guns. We can cut birthday candles in half at 25 feet with them. The accuracy out of the box is unbelivable. I cannot thank my friend that turned me on to the latest production S&W 1911 guns enough. Pricey?? Yes. Worth it?? Sure and I bought a second almost as soon as I found how good the first was. Now I am looking at buying a third.