Help on 9mm 147 grain Moly

[shotslow]

I am having trouble with 9mm reloads using 147 grain moly coated TC bullets. What should be the diameter of the taper crimp? I measured a factory round (UMC 115 g fmj) and it was .379 - .380. That is what my Lee factory crimp is set at. I have loaded over 5000 rounds and had no problems. These have been 124 grain Ranier and 125 grain Zero bullets. Plus 500 147 grain lead Oregon bullets and 1000 124 grain moly bullets. No problems. Well leading with the 124 g moly.

The problem is the 147 g moly bullets come loose under recoil. They feed ok but often the last bullet in the magazine falls out. I am using 3.6 grains of Win231 which is maximum. But they sound like I am shooting mouse fart loads. I have crimped some down to .376 and they shot fine. The brass I am using have been reloaded several times. Any suggestions?

 

[Carnage_7]

What is the diameter of the 147g molys you are using? Measure some with your calipers and see what you are getting. What brand of molys are they? I normally crimp mine to .378.

 

[Rule3]

If you are using the Lee FC die, You can not over crimp the bullet.

The "Normal" setting is to to turn the adjustment knob all the way out. Put in a loaded round and turn down until it stops. Now back out the round and turn the knob 1/2 to 3/4 turn more. You will find that turning it even more, up to a full turn makes no difference .

 

[shotslow]

The diameter of the bullet is .355. The are Bear Creek Bullets. The link is: BC9
They are supposed to be .356.

I tightened the crimp and am getting readings of .377. I am going to the outdoor range tomorrow to test them.

I have seen a 45 acp squeezed down with a Lee crimp die to where it would keyhole consistently at 7 yards. I have had my 9mm rounds keyhole at about the same distance. Just not consistently, maybe 2 in 30 rounds. I do not get leading. Barrel is still very clean, well after I clean it.

I will post results from the range visit.

 

[Rule3]

Maybe the Moly is so slippery that they will not get good neck tension. I don't see any reason to use Moly coated. It's a major job to remove from barrels. Worse in high velocity rifles.

 

[shotslow]

At this point I tend to agree with you OCD1. I never imagined there would be this problem with 147 grain bullets. I got 2500 left. Have to make the best of it. The moly is to prevent leading. But the velocity I am getting would not lead a toy solider.

I have used moly for my 300 mag, 30-06, and 25-06 for years. Worked fine. Made the 300 mag more accurate, IMO. Would not want to argue about it though. Break down the moly every year or so. Not a big deal. Get sub minute of angle out of the 300, 1 minute or so out of the 30-06. (@ 100 and 200 yards) I don't want to talk about the Encore 25-06.

Turns out I can't go to the range today. Tomorrow for sure

 

[Rule3]

The only way that I have read on removing Moly from a barrel is JB's bore paste and some elbow grease.

But yes if you have that many of them you have to use them up.

Some time ago I spoke with one of the techs at Lee and he said you can not over crimp with the FCD to the point where it will effect the headspacing. I would turn it one full turn after it touches the case mouth.

Nothing to do with the crimping but curious as to the load (mouse farts)for 147 with W231. I use pretty much nothing but HP 38/W 231 and there is no Hodgdon data for the 147 gr bullet and that powder. Nor in any of my manuals.

Edit: I just thought of something as I have done it, do you have the crimp insert in the die in the right direction? I took mine apart to clean , think it was 357 and it was driving me crazy as it would not crimp.

 

[H Richard]

What brass are you using, and what is the case wall thickness? If the case wall thickness is .010, and the bullet is .355 the total is .375. You have no crimp at all. Most brass is around .012 to .013 thick, which will finish out .379 to .381, then you taper crimp down to .376 or .378 to get about .003 crimp.

 

[shotslow]

I have load and shot 500 147 grain Oregon bullets with 3.5 grains of Win 231. They shot well and velocity was good.

The brass I use is once fired brass of various manufacturer. Much of my brass has been fired several times.

I got the load from an old Lyman manual from 50+ years ago. I verified it by asking online. Plus the 48th edition of the Lyman manual page 323 shows a range of 3.5 to 4.1 of Win231 for a Speer 147 gr. TMJ. Yes, I know that is different from a lead bullet, I have always believed a minimum jacketed load can be used with a lead bullet. Plus it works.

 

[Rule3]

You are the one that labeled them "Mouse Farts"

 

[shotslow]

I try to load to get the correct power factor of 125, USPSA minor. Actually want 130 to 140. Gotta knock down those steel varmints. For a power factor of 130 I only need 885 fps with a 147 g bullet, definitely subsonic. The old Lyman manual and the 8th edition Lyman suggests I should get about 950 fps with a max loading of Win 231. I am taking my Chrony tomorrow. I think this has been a crimp problem. If the Chrony gives good readings I will have proved it.

Mouse farts is a what I was getting with the loose crimp even with a max loading of Win 231. I have shot a lot of 9mm that appeared to be good. I may have not loaded them with a good crimp. I did not get good results last fall when I put a chronograph on them, but they gave a big boom. I thought the chronograph was off.

 

[shotslow]

Bad day at the range. With a Ruger 10/22 in 22 lr I got a reading 1287, 1282, 863.9, 966.2, 784.5 ...

But still a good day.

With 9mm I got a reading of 1438,276.5, 270.9. I packed up and came home. (I tried a couple more times with the 22 lr and 9mm. Same thing. A couple of high readings then low ones. )

I will try the bullets on Tuesday and hope. I am getting recoil and accuracy, not like before. I will not know until I shoot a course of fire if the bullets will come loose under recoil.

I am calling Chrony about their product.

 

[Rule3]

But how were the 147 bullets in the 9mm. Did they stay crimped??

What Chrony you using? Was it real Sunny out? I had the same problem until Erich explained how to fix it with taping cardboard on the sides to block any side light.

I was just re doing mine in a OCD way and will post pics when the paint dries.

 

[shotslow]

I am really obsessed about seeing those pictures.

I have a F1 Shooting Chrony. I had a Beta but it did not survive being center punched with a 45 acp. (An M&P )

It is a sunny day. I tried to shade the sensors and had the sunscreens on. I also moved it into the shade. The results were the same. I am very interested seeing how you have done it.

I got around to calling Chrony too late so I sent an email.

I shot only 15 9mm and did not notice any of the crimp failing. But I was so mad about the Chrony I did not pay enough attention.

 

[Rule3]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/188396-chronograph-blues-6pm-est-update.html

Post number #2.

I was having the same problem with my Chrony Alpha Master. Down here it is always blazing sun and my range faces East and West. So if I shoot before noon the Sun is coming in at a angle facing me plus the ground is all sand and reflects. Take pieces of cardboard and tape them in front of each electronic eye to produce shade over them. Use the light diffusers (sky screens) also.

Being anal and OCD I still wanted my Chrony to fold and did not want to have to tape and untape every trip. I was going to stick on Velcro but came up with a better idea which I will post in another thread, (building suspense!) it's brilliant!

 

[gbrady]

Moly

OCD1 is correct, you cannot use moly coat on a taper crimp, the moly will allow the bullet to slide out on recoil. The moly will work on a roll crimp alright. I reload for some match shooters in .45 acp and ran into the same problem some years back.

 

[shotslow]

ARGGGGH. Why would someone make something like that. I shot 1000 rounds of moly 125 grain RN. No problem but leading. Only 2500 more rounds to shoot. Maybe I can glue them in.

 

[Rule3]

ARGGGGH. Why would someone make something like that. I shot 1000 rounds of moly 125 grain RN. No problem but leading. Only 2500 more rounds to shoot. Maybe I can glue them in.

Did you check your crimp die to be sure the insert is in the correct way?? I was only guessing at the Moly being that slippery. Set the die to max crimp, I can't believe it will not hold the bullet, molly or not.

When Molly was all the craze, lots of rifle shooters used them, still do.

 

[shotslow]

I checked the crimp a long time ago. I can crimp the case to .376 to .377.

 

[shotslow]

Got good news, bad news, good news, bad news

Just back from the range and chronographing my 9mm.

First Good News: The F1 Chrony works. I built little rectangular card board boxes, 3 inches high, 6 inches long, and about 1.5 inches thick. I used black duck tape bits of plastic from the primer containers to construct them. They go around the sensors and direct sunlight can not get to them. I tested with 22 lr with average of 1272 FPS. I used factory 9mm (UMC) with 115 gr RN and average of 1136 FPS.

First bad news:
The moly 147 grains with a tight crimp did not function. They recorded about 300 fps for all samples.

Second good news:
Previous loadings with 125 RN Zero and 4.4 g of Titegroup gave a average reading of 1162 FPS. The Horandy 125 XTP came out at 1224 FPS.

Second bad news:
I don't know what to do next.