Help! Problem with Model 14-3

[Martowski]

Hi all,

I just took possession of a Model 14-3 but am having an issue with the action. This particular pistol is supposed to be single action only (and SA is marked on the original box). However, the hammer will NOT cock manually. It will ONLY cock after the trigger is pulled and held back, and then will cock as long as the trigger is held. However, the trigger will not pull back in many cases either (it's intermittent that the trigger will pull back). During the times the trigger will actually like a double action, it does rotate the cylinder and the hammer will fall but does not fully cock. Basically, the cylinder rotates and the hammer falls without moving back. I have also observed that, when the hammer is pulled back, the cylinder stop drops and then immediately pops back up... I think this may be the cause but not sure why that is happening. I have attached the link to a short video showing some of this.

Model 14 Issue - YouTube

I know this is not correct, as as single action only Model 14 should allow the handle to cock back manually.

Any ideas what is happening with this? This was something I purchased out of state and had shipped to me. I took possession of this because the firearm is in beautiful condition and am hoping it's not a complicated fix.

Thanks.

 

[RGNewell]

Make sure the main spring strain screw is tight.

 

[Narragansett]

Just a suggestion, but I might post this in the S&W Smithing forum.

 

[Martowski]

Thanks, posted in the gunsmithing forum.

 

[dsf]

Am wondering if the cylinder bolt isn't being dropped down prior to the hand engaging/turning the cylinder. Easy test - wwing out the cylinder, hold the thumblatch to the rear so the hammer can be thumb cocked to the rear. If the hammer cocks the problem could be a) timing or b) hand engagement with the cylinder ratchet.

Any chance you could remove the sideplate, reinsert the cylinder and very slowly, carefully attempt to thumb cock the action? No need to drop the hammer.

Be careful to tap back into place the hammer & trigger assembly after you've tapped off the sideplate.

 

[ken158]

Tighten the strain screw like it is suppose to be and report back

 

[rincar]

Take it to a Gunsmith.

 

[Rodan]

Something is wrong internally if the hammer cannot be pulled rearward with the trigger forward.

If you are unable to return it, and do not have enough familarity with the S&W action to remove the sideplate and understand what's going on, I'd recommend taking it to a qualified Smith.

My guess is someone didn't know what they had (or what they're doing) and tried to 'fix' it.

 

[Martowski]

Hi All,

The main spring strain screw wasn't quite screwed in all the way. I gave it a turn and it is in all the way, but that didn't change anything.

Here are a couple videos. The first one shows what I believe to be the issue, is that the cylinder bolt is only dropping for a moment but then springs back up before the hand can engage and turn the cylinder.

January 3, 2021(1) - YouTube


This next video shows the action working with the side plate removed. You can see that it works for the first time or two, but when the side plate is removed the trigger has to be "nudged" forward to reset. This doesn't seem to be the case when the side plate is in place. The action seems to bind as well mid pull when the side plate is off but again, the only seems to happen with the side plate removed (I think the hammer block safety gets a little bound up without the side plate in place to hold everything together). But, posting due to request.

January 3, 2021(2) - YouTube

Again, I believe the issue to be the fact that the cylinder bolt doesn't drop the way it should, but not sure why this is happening.

I've inspected this pretty closely and the pistol appears unfired to me. There are absolutely no wear marks or powder burns on the cylinder, and the bore looks pristine. No signs of residue anywhere. If it was fired, it wasn't fired much at all.

I will add, this thing is bone dry on the inside. Not sure if that matters, but not a hint of lube or grease.

 

[Rodan]

It looks like your problem is the interface between the trigger hook and cylinder stop. If the trigger is not able to return all the way forward, the cylinder stop won't drop, and the trigger stops in a position that jams up the action.

To confirm, replace the sideplate and confirm that the action works normally after the trigger returns fully forward and the cylinder stop drops. If you can't push the trigger forward with finger pressure, the interference is pretty bad.

If you can push the trigger forward, and everything works normally after doing so, cleaning up the contact between the trigger hook and cylinder stop may solve the problem.

I had a similar problem with a model 65 that would 'lock up' when the trigger did not return properly, and I discovered a burr on the cylinder stop that was causing the problem. Some very careful cleanup of the surfaces solved the issue.

It's not rocket science, but best left to a competent 'smith if you haven't done this kind of thing before, and have the proper tools.

 

[dsf]

A good cleaning would be the first step and could clear things up. I think your very good video may show another cause.

Make sure there's nothing inside the rebound slide. Since your 14 has a trigger overtravel stop on the frame there probably isn't one in the rebound slide but if so ensure it's in properly. Sharp end forward IIRC.

The trigger (rebound) reset spring should be strong enough to overcome the cylinder bolt being out of place on reset and power the trigger to full reset. That it comes up short is an issue. I think I would do a complete disassembly and cleaning and the following -

If cleaning doesn't solve it, replace the trigger rebound spring. They're readily available, cost about $6.00 each from Brownells. IIRC factory is 18 lbs. 15 will usually work, 12 or 11 requires action work to ensure full reset.

Viewing the video, watch the spring coils in the "window" of the rebound slide. Obviously they compress when the hammer is cocked. During return, they reposition apart when the trigger moves forward & stops short of full reset. When you manually push the trigger forward the spacing between coils stays the same, it seems to me. Which I take to mean the spring has reached its full reset length. Meaning, it's run out of power before the trigger has fully reset.

I'd also check the positioning of the cylinder bolt return spring. If not seated correctly against the cylinder bolt it may be causing the bolt to not actuate properly for reset. Yours looks placed a bit low. Be careful, there's nothing really holding the spring in place.

By way of another test to eliminate other issues, I'd remove the hammer and mainspring, leave in the trigger and rebound assembly, cylinder bolt. With the mainspring and hammer off that trigger should snap back strong and fully reset. If that's the case, and considering the strain screw was backed out, it may be that someone clipped a coil or two off the trigger rebound spring. Will be easy to tell as the coils should be closed on each end of the spring.

BTW, that's not a SA only hammer. A SA hammer is distinctly different from a DA/SA hammer. Nothing wrong with that, but if the gun originally was a SA and serial numbers to the box, someone has definitely been inside, so to speak.

^^
Oops on me - must have been posting too late and mistook part of the hammer block sliding up & down for the DA sear.

 

[Martowski]

Thanks for the insight everyone. I'll look further into this. While I am not very experienced with the inner workings of a K Frame, I am pretty experienced with the inner workings of firearms in general (I fit triggers to 1911s and have fit thumb safeties as well, and frequently disassemble and change out parts in other pistols and rifles). Not to say that I'm over confident with working on a K Frame, but just to say I know enough to know not to "bubba" this up.

dsf, can you please help me understand what a proper factor single action K Frame hammer should look like? This is a pic of my Model 14 and my Model 66 side by side (with hammer block bars removed for ease of viewing). They were manufactured only three years apart (1977 and 1974, respectively), so I would think they would be virtually identical if they both had DA/SA hammers . However, the hammers on My Models 14 and 66 are very different (again, see pic).

Also, the hammer on my Model 14 appears identical to this one from Numrich: Hammer, Single Action, .500" Wide Spur w/Hammer Nose | Gun Parts Corp.

 

[Rodan]

Compared to the info in my Kuhnhausen shop manual, that does indeed look like a factory SA hammer.

Good catch by dsf on the rebound spring. If someone backed out the mainspring strain screw, they could have taken the shortcut on the rebound spring and cut coils there. Being an SA gun, I didn't think someone would go there, but it's possible.

 

[Martowski]

Well, I completely disassembled the action and inspected everything. I can't see any burrs or issues with the trigger hook or cylinder stop. The rebound slide and spring appear fine, and the spring has not been clipped. I also tested what would happen with the hammer removed and only the trigger, rebound spring/slide, and cylinder bolt and spring in place. After pulling the trigger, everything springs back into place. I did a cleaning and light lube of all parts and the inside of the frame and side plate. Everything appears to work fine when the side plate is off, see video below (the hammer block safety is not in this video since it tends to bind with the side plate removed, as there is no channel to guide it then).

Single Action No Sideplate - YouTube

However, when I put the hammer block safety and side plate back on, it seems I'm able to cock and dry fire a few times but the issue with the cylinder stop flicking down for a brief moment and then popping back up into place before the cylinder rotates starts again. I thought maybe the hammer block safety was binding, so I took that out, put the side plate back on, and same issues. However, as soon as I remove the side plate again everything starts working correctly.

At this point, I'm wondering if something is binding against the side plate, causing the trigger and cylinder stop to not fully reset to where they need to be... but when I remove the side plate it releases the binding. I even took the side plate from my Model 67 and put it on the Model 14 (as best as it would fit without forcing anything of course), and everything worked fine. If that's the case, I'm thinking it's off to the gunsmith with this one?

Any other thoughts or ideas?

 

[Nightowl]

It appears that the cylinder stop area where the trigger toggles it down is very short. i would replace the cylinder stop.

 

[Narragansett]

Remove the side plate. Spray with non chlorinated brake cleaner. Then compressed air. Then lubricate.

BACK OFF THE TENSION ON THE MAIN SPRING IF YOU ARE GOING TO COCK THE GUN WITH THE SIDEPLATE OFF

 

[Martowski]

Well, this is officially beyond me. I tried a couple things, swapped the cylinder bolt from my Model 67 and that didn't work (not surprising, but figured I'd try it). I also noticed the trigger rebound spring from the 67 was about one coil longer than the spring on the 14, so I swapped those. Thought I might have gotten it fixed, but now it's sticking again.

At this point, I am either going to return it to the seller (which it sounds like I can do) or take it to a gunsmith. I really want this Model 14 to work out because it is soooo nice, but man... what a pain so far.

 

[dsf]

Thanks for the insight everyone. I'll look further into this. While I am not very experienced with the inner workings of a K Frame, I am pretty experienced with the inner workings of firearms in general (I fit triggers to 1911s and have fit thumb safeties as well, and frequently disassemble and change out parts in other pistols and rifles). Not to say that I'm over confident with working on a K Frame, but just to say I know enough to know not to "bubba" this up.

dsf, can you please help me understand what a proper factor single action K Frame hammer should look like? This is a pic of my Model 14 and my Model 66 side by side (with hammer block bars removed for ease of viewing). They were manufactured only three years apart (1977 and 1974, respectively), so I would think they would be virtually identical if they both had DA/SA hammers . However, the hammers on My Models 14 and 66 are very different (again, see pic).

Also, the hammer on my Model 14 appears identical to this one from Numrich: Hammer, Single Action, .500" Wide Spur w/Hammer Nose | Gun Parts Corp.

Mea Culpa - up late, older eyes saw what wasn't there.

 

[ken158]

After watching your excellent videos, my thoughts now are to try a new cylinder stop spring and a new rebound spring. You do have a factory single action hammer.

 

[merl67]

If you have access to some blue layout dye applie some to the inside of the sideplate reinstall the side plate work the action several times see if any spots are have the blue dye rubbed off.
Edit these problems are rarely serious, and usually are stupidly simple it's just finding the cause that is frustrating.