My friend has a 1917 da 45 that he got from his grandfather. I'm considering buying it off him. It appears to be a commercial gun. Can anyone give me more info maybe on the stocks or the serial? I'm trying to value it a bit to give an offer.
Help with 1917 DA 45
- Thread starter wally05
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That is a nice looking 1917 DA 45. Especially the grips. How about a few pics of the grips off on the frame and inside of the grips.
gjamison
Member
That's a commercial 1917 not a military. Looks original, the military 1917 had smooth grip and there wasn't a S&W logo stamp on the frame.
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The serial number is the number on the bottom of the grip frame. The number you see stamped on the frame inside the yoke cutout, below where the barrel screws in, is an assembly number, put on the frame, the sideplate and one other place (I forget!) at the factory, after the parts were fit to each other but before the parts were blued (or plated, for those guns that were nickeled), so the fitted parts could be matched back together after batches of parts were blued. Once a gun is shipped, the numbers mean nothing.
The serial number was also stamped on several of the gun's parts, you should find it on the rear face of the cylinder, on the flat space on the bottom of the barrel (you have to swing the cylinder out to see that one) and usually two or three other spots.
The stocks or grips were also numbered to the gun with the serial number put on the inside of the right stock panel. It was done in pencil and with metal stamps at different times. When in pencil, it can be hard to make out or not visible at all, with the passage of time and handling.
1917's are great guns, and favorites of many of us on this site.
And, welcome to the site, Wally. Many knowledgeable and helpful people hang out here, as do others like me!
The serial number was also stamped on several of the gun's parts, you should find it on the rear face of the cylinder, on the flat space on the bottom of the barrel (you have to swing the cylinder out to see that one) and usually two or three other spots.
The stocks or grips were also numbered to the gun with the serial number put on the inside of the right stock panel. It was done in pencil and with metal stamps at different times. When in pencil, it can be hard to make out or not visible at all, with the passage of time and handling.
1917's are great guns, and favorites of many of us on this site.
And, welcome to the site, Wally. Many knowledgeable and helpful people hang out here, as do others like me!
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Wally,
Welcome aboard.
That does indeed have all the earmarks of a righteous 1917 commercial built on a WW I surplus frame (note the eagle head stamp in the yoke).
Check the back side of the right side grip to confirm the serial # marked in pencil matches the gun. That's a key value factor. With its logo stamp and no MADE IN USA stamp on the right side frame, it was produced between 1920 thru 1922. It looks to be all original in average condition.
If it is, I'd put it in the $800 ball park.
Let us know what you decide.
Welcome aboard.
That does indeed have all the earmarks of a righteous 1917 commercial built on a WW I surplus frame (note the eagle head stamp in the yoke).
Check the back side of the right side grip to confirm the serial # marked in pencil matches the gun. That's a key value factor. With its logo stamp and no MADE IN USA stamp on the right side frame, it was produced between 1920 thru 1922. It looks to be all original in average condition.
If it is, I'd put it in the $800 ball park.
Let us know what you decide.
Jack Flash
Member
Good comments from all, especially Jim.
I would beg to differ on the ballpark value, however. Despite some corrosion issues, the finish does appear to be original and unmolested. Even the screws look perfect, with no mangling apparent. The stocks look great and I assume they are not replacements. Even if they are, they would be worth a boatload of money sold separately.
Commercial models command a premium. In this condition I can't imagine it not bringing in $1,000 minimum, perhaps considerably more than that.
I would beg to differ on the ballpark value, however. Despite some corrosion issues, the finish does appear to be original and unmolested. Even the screws look perfect, with no mangling apparent. The stocks look great and I assume they are not replacements. Even if they are, they would be worth a boatload of money sold separately.
Commercial models command a premium. In this condition I can't imagine it not bringing in $1,000 minimum, perhaps considerably more than that.
Hey guys! Thanks for the great replies. I carry a shield as a bug and off duty gun and have always loved old smithies. I never like asking value questions but I figured you all could provide some good info on the markings and general condition. I thought it was around an early 1920s gun. I'll see if I can get a look at the stocks. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on this. Trigger is beautiful also.
DWalt
Member
All indications point to it being a commercial M1917 shipped in the early 1920s. Most significantly, it does not have the U.S. ARMY MODEL 1917 stamping on the butt. It has civilian stocks of the style used by S&W during the 1920s and has the S&W logo stamped on the frame. The lack of the MADE IN USA frame stamp would put it at 1922 or earlier, while the presence of the S&W logo stamp would put it at later than 1919. It was built on a leftover WWI frame, the SNs of which went to SN 169959 at war's end in 1918. I'd put it at about a grand, maybe more to the right buyer.
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Wally05: Welcome to the forum. You sure found the right place to get answers!! These are literally some of the guys who wrote the book(s) on Smith and Wessons. Hang around, even after you find out all about your gun. Trust me, you'll want more.
Best Regards, Les
Best Regards, Les
I appreciate it, Les! I've been lurking for a long time and I thought this would be the place to ask these questions.
frankynohankypanky
Member
Until this 1917 Commercial appeared, my gun no. 167382 was the earliest on the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association database.
My Commercial was shipped in October 1922, and like yours does not have "Made in U.S.A." stamped on the right side of the frame.
My Commercial was shipped in October 1922, and like yours does not have "Made in U.S.A." stamped on the right side of the frame.
Awesome. Well put me down as the owner of this guy because I'll be picking it up in a few days. Even if the grips are not original, I still want it. The wife even gave permission.
. I'll have to order a letter for this one.I really appreciate everyone's help and warm welcome. I'll be sticking Around this forum.
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Wally:
This gun would fit right in with the thread I started a coulple of days ago called "Slick Shooter of the Roaring Twenties"!! Check it out at:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...-shooters-roaring-twenties.html#post139113511
Feel free to post yours there as well as here. Lots of guys are showcasing their 1920s guns there. Also a lot of twenties firearms lore is surfacing.
Best Regards, Les
This gun would fit right in with the thread I started a coulple of days ago called "Slick Shooter of the Roaring Twenties"!! Check it out at:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear...-shooters-roaring-twenties.html#post139113511
Feel free to post yours there as well as here. Lots of guys are showcasing their 1920s guns there. Also a lot of twenties firearms lore is surfacing.
Best Regards, Les
I love those pics. As soon as I pick this up, I'll get some good pics and post them. My local shop has a 95% colt pocket .25acp with box for $650. I looked at it once... Was tempting, but I don't know values on them. Seemed like a lot for a pocket model.
Wally: I'll be looking forward to seeing your pics!! Also hearing how you like your new Smith once you get your hands on it. I sort of collect, but I shoot everything that I collect. No Elmer Keith loads, I have modern high tensile, and more importantly, replaceable guns to do that with, but I like to load moderate rounds and shoot all of my treasures. That's part of the fun for me.
While $650 seems a little high, you aren't going to find very many 1908 .25 autos in 95% condition. You might want to check some of the online auction sites to see what they are asking, and more importantly, see a few completed auctions to see what they have actually got for the same gun in the same condition. It might be a good buy. I don't rely on it exclusively, but check the most recent copy of the Blue Book of Gun Values as well. They are at least ball park, and give you something to go on.
There are lots of opinions on values here on the forum, and I know that I have sometimes given a little more to get a gun that I wanted, and sometimes I have gotten them for a little less than they were worth. On the whole, I'm sure that if you added the current value of all my guns up, it would be far above what I paid for them, even factoring in inflation. Not too many investments pay those kinds of dividends, and never risk losing all their value.
Best Regards, Les
Awesome. Thanks, Les! I'll take a harder look at it when I head back to that shop. It has been sitting for awhile, so maybe he'll move on it. The serial puts it around 1918 or so for production and it has walnut grips. I didn't think those grips came until later though. It comes with the original box.
I've always been in the camp of "pay what you want for it if you want it". I usually only research values just to give a good starting place for haggling.
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Wally:
That box is a big bonus. Sight unseen, I'd probably take it. You are right, I can't remember exact date, but I don't think those walnut grips came in that early. Also, I seem to remember that the first year or so, the colts in the medallions faced forward on both sides of the gun, in other words, there were two different medallions, on for the left, and one for the right.
I'll check on those dates for you...
Edit: Some of this info was copied from "Coltautos.com"... basically, there were four types of standard grips: first there were two types of hard rubber grips, which do not apply here. Then, there were two types of checkered walnut grips:
First of these was the "machine checkered walnut with forward-facing flush medallions on both grips (from approx. serial number 345,000 to 350,000);"
And then there were "machine checkered walnut with forward facing flush medallion on the left grip and left-facing flush medallion on the right grip (from approx. serial number 350,000 to 409,900.)".
If you look at my Colt over on my thread, you will see the serial is 349,104, so it is right at the approximate date that they switched... Mine has the same medallion on both sides, so it is in the second type.
These are listed by serial number rather than year. Colt was something like Smith in that the ship dates did not always correspond to the serial numbers, so this is probably the best way to see if the grips seem to match the gun.
Also... There was available a hand checkered fancy walnut grip from 1913 until 1923. This one cost more than the optional smooth ivory or mother of pearl grip. This is what they look like:
If you have one of these, I would be all over that deal. Even if not, with that box.... I would probably still take it!!!!
Best Regards, Les
That box is a big bonus. Sight unseen, I'd probably take it. You are right, I can't remember exact date, but I don't think those walnut grips came in that early. Also, I seem to remember that the first year or so, the colts in the medallions faced forward on both sides of the gun, in other words, there were two different medallions, on for the left, and one for the right.
I'll check on those dates for you...
Edit: Some of this info was copied from "Coltautos.com"... basically, there were four types of standard grips: first there were two types of hard rubber grips, which do not apply here. Then, there were two types of checkered walnut grips:
First of these was the "machine checkered walnut with forward-facing flush medallions on both grips (from approx. serial number 345,000 to 350,000);"
And then there were "machine checkered walnut with forward facing flush medallion on the left grip and left-facing flush medallion on the right grip (from approx. serial number 350,000 to 409,900.)".
If you look at my Colt over on my thread, you will see the serial is 349,104, so it is right at the approximate date that they switched... Mine has the same medallion on both sides, so it is in the second type.
These are listed by serial number rather than year. Colt was something like Smith in that the ship dates did not always correspond to the serial numbers, so this is probably the best way to see if the grips seem to match the gun.
Also... There was available a hand checkered fancy walnut grip from 1913 until 1923. This one cost more than the optional smooth ivory or mother of pearl grip. This is what they look like:
If you have one of these, I would be all over that deal. Even if not, with that box.... I would probably still take it!!!!
Best Regards, Les
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DWalt
Member
I saw a very nice Colt .25 ACP at the local gun show yesterday, with a $450 price tag. But it wasn't quite 95% (more like 90%) and no box. No idea what the seller would have accepted, but it probably would have been less than that. You might want to haggle some on the price if you really want it.
Most of these I have seen over the years have been in fairly high condition, and I suspect most have not lead rough-and-tumble lives, maybe carried in a purse or slumbering in a nightstand drawer. I have been carrying a .25 automatic (not a Colt) in a pocket sheath holster for about 10 years, and it still looks near-new.
Most of these I have seen over the years have been in fairly high condition, and I suspect most have not lead rough-and-tumble lives, maybe carried in a purse or slumbering in a nightstand drawer. I have been carrying a .25 automatic (not a Colt) in a pocket sheath holster for about 10 years, and it still looks near-new.
Well, the stocks match the gun. I picked her up today. I need to give it a good cleaning and use something to remove the light corrosion (suggestions?). It looks like there is some VERY minor pitting on the cylinder in a small place, but other than that, cleaning it up should take away the majority of surface defects. bore is in fantastic shape and the lockup is nice and tight.
The previous owner got it from his grandfather, who purchased it in the early 1940s from a police officer, who carried it for a very long time, hence the bluing wear on the high points.
As for the .25, that is fantastic info! I'm going to take a look at it when I go in to pick up my ak47.
Most pocket pistols I've seen are in dang good shape.
The previous owner got it from his grandfather, who purchased it in the early 1940s from a police officer, who carried it for a very long time, hence the bluing wear on the high points.
As for the .25, that is fantastic info! I'm going to take a look at it when I go in to pick up my ak47.
Most pocket pistols I've seen are in dang good shape.
