help with 40 S&W

[jim8115]

Can anyone give me a good starting point for 180 Gr plated and lead bullets, using unique or w231? Shooting a Sigma. It seems that every manual, or article i find varies widely... I am not wanting max velocity, just a reliable safe round for my wife to practice with.
Would 6.4 of unique or 5.4 W231 be good?
I dont have a scale yet, so am constrained by the lee dippers

thanks,

 

[OKFC05]

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

You're too hot on the 231 load; don't start on or dip max charges.
Minimum load is more like 4.0 grains.
Try a few and see if they work the slide in the mid 4's.

 

[Fkimble]

I use 4.6 of 231 with 180 jacketed Zero's if that's any help

 

[jim8115]

Guess ill go buy a powder scale.... I have been using the lee dippers, which are fine if the powder load matches up exactly to what you are loading ( like with my .38 loads, the .5 dipper is 4.6 grains of unique ) , otherwise they are worthless...

 

[Rule3]

Guess ill go buy a powder scale.... ..

You should not even consider reloading anything without a good scale. It's the most important piece of reloading equipment.

There is nothing wrong with the Lee Dippers and the use of them is very accurate only if you know what actual weight they are delivering. They go by volume. Your W 231 probably weighs a little different than mine. It all varies by lot , temp, humidity etc. The Lee chart is only a guide to the lot they used at that particular time.

Once you know what the weight of a dipper is , it will deliver exactly the same every time if you use them correctly. Dip in the powder to over flow, do not tap or shake, take a straight edge (a card) and run it across the top.

Get a scale( not a cheap electronic piece of junk)

 

[fredj338]

Can anyone give me a good starting point for 180 Gr plated and lead bullets, using unique or w231? Shooting a Sigma. It seems that every manual, or article i find varies widely... I am not wanting max velocity, just a reliable safe round for my wife to practice with.
Would 6.4 of unique or 5.4 W231 be good?
I dont have a scale yet, so am constrained by the lee dippers

thanks,

Not sure where you got your data but both loads are too hot for plated bullets IMO. For Unique, you want to be around 5.5gr & for W231 around 5.3gr. You can work up a bit from there, but those should be under 1000fps.

 

[PDL]

+1 on 'where's your data coming from' and what bullets you're actually using.

With 180gr Missouri TCFP and Penn RNFP lead bullets, I've been loading at 5.0 of W231 or Bullseye, CCI primers, COL 1.12.
The BE is a touch hotter, but not so you'd notice.

I don't have a chrono but quickload suggests they're about 1000fps

 

[jim8115]

Ok, i was looking at load data other people had listed, different places on the different forums and web sites, etc..thats why I asked here, there was just way too much spread.... The bullets came from a local dealer, they are 180 Gr LEAD , and 180 GR Plated Round Flat nose. I dont know the brand, as they are packaged in plastic bags, with no markings.

 

[delta1679]

I've loaded about 300 .40 rounds with 5.5gr of Unique using180gr plated flat nose bullets from Berry's. That info is directly out of the Lee reloading manual. Works quite well out of my SW40VE. I would also definitely recommend picking up a powder measure, good scale, and one of the reloading manuals on the market. I'm relatively new to reloading, but those tools have been extremely helpful to ensure I'm as accurate as possible.

 

[M29since14]

In handloading, where any type of uncertainty exists, it is always best to err on the side of caution. Generally, your gun will never care, and you will never know, if your load is 100 FPS slower than you would like.

We see these variations in charge weights all the time, and it is frustrating, but usually when you look closely, there are slight component differences. Just accept the lowest maximum charge weight you find as maximum, until you have some reason to be certain it is safe to go further.

With plated bullets, it is tough to find really precise data, but more and more is coming along. I notice Accurate Arms has a considerable amount of data for plated bullets on their website now. In the meantime, take no chances. Always start low and progress carefully.

 

[noylj]

Plated bullet manufacturers say to use lead data or go no higher than the mid-jacketed data.
I don't like plated bullets and recommend buying jacketed in bulk from Montana Gold, Precision Delta, or Zero (Roze Distribution). In bulk, they are the same or even less than the plated bullets.
There are very few guns that don't perform their very best with jacketed bullets (either JHP or H-RNFP). I am a life-long cast bullet shooter, but if I can't cast I use real jacketed bullets.
Never "guess" at a load. Reference at least two different manuals and start at the LOWEST starting load and work up. Work up in 5% or 0.3 grain increments, whichever is less.
Never trust a load from any source other than a reloading component manufacturer.

 

[roundgunner]

I agree with too hot.
This is my medium hot 180 JHP load

180 JHP 6.2 UNIQUE 1090 M&P 1060 M&Pc

I used the dippers when I first got started. Sometimes I used a combination of 2 scoops to get the right charge, about 10% under full power.

 

[jim8115]

Thanks to all of you for the input. I ordered a RCBS powder scale today, and will start with the lower figures y'all have provided me.

 

[Rule3]

Thanks to all of you for the input. I ordered a RCBS powder scale today, and will start with the lower figures y'all have provided me.

Good to hear. RCBS makes excellent products. As I mentioned, a good scale is the most important tool to have. Without knowing the exact weight of your powder charge you can get in trouble real fast. You can still dispense powder with the dippers once you know exactly what they hold. If it is a little over, you can sand them down a bit untill you get the exact charge you want. Just put a piece of medium sandpaper on a perfectly flat surface and use a circl motion to sand a tiny bit at a time. Then scoop and re weigh.

 

[weyerbacher]

If you like 231, you might want to try Winchester Super Field. I use it for my 40 loads. It's cleaner than 231.

 

[scattershot]

You might want to invest in a good reloading manual, too. Two of my favorites are the Lyman and Hornady books.

Good shooting!

 

[jim8115]

Would 4.6 grains of unique be too low for a start? My powder scale wont be here till next week......................and I can get that with the Lee dippers

 

[fredj338]

Ok, i was looking at load data other people had listed, different places on the different forums and web sites, etc..thats why I asked here, there was just way too much spread.... The bullets came from a local dealer, they are 180 Gr LEAD , and 180 GR Plated Round Flat nose. I dont know the brand, as they are packaged in plastic bags, with no markings.

YOU NEVER USE FORUMS OR OTHER NON VETTED SITES as "data". Data comes form a punlsihed source where it has been pressure tested. I am confident that 99.9% of any loading info form forums or your buddy's uncle or whatever are NOT pressrue tested.
Bullets are NOT plug & play. Plated, lead & jacketd, FMJ, truncted cone, JHP, etc, none can be just thrown into a load w/ working that load up form the bottom.

 

[jim8115]

I understand. Which one would you recommend? The ones I have checked so far seem to be rather incomplete, they only have certain bullet weight, powder, etc. Is there a really good one that covers most combinations? For example, alliant only gives a max charge, and it is 6.7 unique for a 180Gr jacketed. From what I can tell from getting real world input from people here, that is too high...........thats why i was trying to do some research before i even start
Thanks

 

[Rule3]

I understand. Which one would you recommend? The ones I have checked so far seem to be rather incomplete, they only have certain bullet weight, powder, etc. Is there a really good one that covers most combinations? For example, alliant only gives a max charge, and it is 6.7 unique for a 180Gr jacketed. From what I can tell from getting real world input from people here, that is too high...........thats why i was trying to do some research before i even start
Thanks

You are going to find discrepancies between manuals and the powder companies test data. It all depends on the actual bullet used, the powder lot # and test barrel. You can not go wrong with the load data from the powder companies which is on line.

I like Hodgdon (IMR Win) the best. There web site is easy to use and prints out well for all their powders.
Alliant powder, yes, uses the max load but tells you to start at 10% less.

As to manuals Speer, Lyman are both good. Speer only uses their bullets but uses a real gun to test.
Lyman has more lead data.
Get several manuals plus the online data from the powder companies. Compare and go with something in the middle if in doubt.

I

 

[fredj338]

I understand. Which one would you recommend? The ones I have checked so far seem to be rather incomplete, they only have certain bullet weight, powder, etc. Is there a really good one that covers most combinations? For example, alliant only gives a max charge, and it is 6.7 unique for a 180Gr jacketed. From what I can tell from getting real world input from people here, that is too high...........thats why i was trying to do some research before i even start
Thanks

ThaT is the point, you will not find a printed, vetted source that has all bullet & powder combos. So you have to learn to extrapolate & understand a few rules. Plated bulles load between a lead bullet & jacketed bullet. Lead bullets always use less powder to achieve sim vel & prssures as jacketed bullets. Match the profile/style/shape of the bullet as closely as possible w/ the one in the data. Start low & work up in 0.1gr increments in small lots of no more than 10rds.
There are few short cuts to good reloading techniques. Taking someone elses data & plugging it in your gun will work if the load is around midrange, but doing your own load workups is the best & right way. LIke OCD1 said, get several manuals, I like lyman & Speer, they both have some useful lead bullet data, helpful when loading plated. Then average the middle data & load 10rds, then load 10 more up 0.1gr & down 0.1gr. Shoot them in order paying attention to reliability, accuracy & any pressure signs, high or low. In that 30rds, you are likley to find a working load that you will be happy with. If not, you can work it up or down 0.1gr at a time. Reloading is not rocket scienc, but making assumptions & doing small things wrong can get you into trouble very quickly.

 

[noylj]

Here is my recommendation:
1) Buy several up-to-date reloading manuals, including Lyman #49 and Richard Lee's Modern Reloading (I think that's the title--he has compiled data from many sources and it includes lead, plated, and jacketed bullet data).
2) Look for your type of bullet by weight and by whether it is jacketed (including "bonded" plated bullets), plated, and lead. In general, plated bullets (like Berry's and Rainier) should start at the equivalent weight lead bullet data and work up to no higher than the equivalent jacketed mid-range load.
3) From several sources, find the LOWEST starting load. Start there.
4) Create a couple of inert "dummy" rounds as you set-up your dies and seat the bullet to the longest COL for the cartridge. Remove any case mouth bell so the rounds can chamber. Remove the barrel from your gun (or use your revolver's cylinder).
Mark up the bullet ogive and the case mouth area with a MagicMarker. Drop an inert round in the barrel and see if it chambers. At this point, the COL is probably be too long to completely chamber. However, there could still be enough residual case mouth flare to prevent chambering. Rotate the round back and forth so the marking will show if the interference is due to the bullet (COL too long) or the case mouth. Fix and adjust until the inert rounds drop in the barrel freely. Re-assemble the gun and place the inert rounds in the magazine or cylinder. Do the rounds fit in the magazine? If not, seat the bullets until they fit your magazine. Now, load a couple of the inert rounds in the magazine and see if they feed and chamber in your gun. You now have YOUR COL for that gun and bullet.
Load about 10-20 rounds with the lowest starting load you found and visit the range. Ensure they function in your gun. Note: they may not cycle due to low charge weight, but you want to be sure that they all will chamber and go bang.
5) Now, make up a series of 5-20 rounds at various charge weights, working up in 0.3gn increments to the lowest Max load you found from various manuals.
6) After each series, pick up the cases and inspect for pressure signs as described in the reloading manuals, noting any case bulges or flattened primers.
7) If there are no signs of pressure and you have some real need, work up to the next Max load very carefully.
8) In general, the most accurate load will be somewhere between the starting load and about half way to the max load. In general, fast powders will be more accurate towards the starting load and slow powders will be more accurate towards the Max load.
9) If at any time recoil seems more than factory ammo, stop and inspect the fired case(s) for pressure signs and take the rest of the rounds home to break down and verify charge weight.
10) I really find the idea of taking loading data and averaging to determine a starting load to be dangerous (but not as dangerous as simply starting off with your buddies favorite load). There is a reason why that one loading manual determined that starting weight and, if your gun is chambered the same, that should be your starting load, also.

 

[dcxplant]

I just bought my first press (RL 550B), and am going through the research/setup phases of my reloading. To be clear, I'm a total noob, but I had the very same questions as you, and this is what I have found out.

I bought a bag of Berry's plated bullets in .40SW. I too wondered how to load these, and I went to Berry's website. I would consult the websites of as many plated bullet manufacturer's I could find, and use the most conservative data to start.

From Berry's website's FAC's (I put the bold type in for emphasis).

Berry's Frequently Asked Questions â

How do I load Berry's plated bullets?

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

How fast can I shoot Berry's plated bullets?

Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

Is case separation a factor:

Separation is very rare. Two things can cause a jacket to separate from the lead core: excessive speeds (magnum velocities) and a real tight roll crimp (cuts through the plating). If you'll keep these two items in check you shouldn't have a problem with bullet separation.

-------
Back to me speaking:

My plan for the plated 40's is to experiment crimping with dummy rounds to find what too much crimp looks like so as not to cut into the plating. I plan on increasing the crimp with each dummy round, pulling the bullets with a puller, until I see the crimp cut into the plating, then I know for sure how much is too much, and back it down from there.

For the more experienced on here, please comment on the methodology if it sounds off.

Thanks for the thread, it's a good one!

 

[Berry's MFG]

I load my .40 caliber rounds to right at 950fps on a 180gr bullet using Universal Clays, works well in all my pistols. I've shot hotter at 1050fps but my pistols seem to shoot better around the 1000fps. We've got many competitive shooters that shoot our bullets and not because they get them at a discount.

 

[noylj]

Why is anyone using these plated bullets? They cost as much as jacketed (see Montana Gold, Zero, and Precision Delta for really affordable jacketed bullets) and are no where near as accurate and the tolerances aren't as tight.
Of course, I mostly shoot cast as I see no need to spend money on plated or jacketed. I get excellent accuracy with cast bullets in my .38 Super compensated guns, despite others warning against it. For any caliber over 0.357, cast bullets are all I shoot.
With the prices of cast going up, I am now moving to Zero and MG jacketed bullets for 9x19 and .38 Super.
If you are in the market for 121-125gn .355 bullets, MG offers their 121gn IFP (like a JHP without the HP) for $310/3800 ($81.58/1000) and their 124gn JHP for $308/3750 ($82.13/1000). Zero and PD are somewhat less, but MG are available when you order.
Berry's 124gn P-HP runs $87.67/1000.
'Nuf said.

 

[jim8115]

update

what i have found so far ( 180 grain lead )
3.8 gr Unique really light but shoots and cycles ok
5.0 gr Unique works fine
4.0 gr 231 would not cycle reliably
4.5 gr 231 works fine

 

[M29since14]

4.5 of 231 should be pretty mild. I routinely use a bit more than that, but cannot point you to published data since I don't recall where I got the charge weight.

If the load is working well and you are not having any troubles with cycling of the action, ejection, etc., that should be a pretty good, light load for your wife. In the Sigma, it should be very comfortable to shoot.

Keep an eye on your barrel and do not let leading accumulate. Your last post mentions lead, rather than plated bullets. Accumulation of leading will cause your pressure to increase, and it is a lot easier to clean the barrel if you keep after it.

 

[jim8115]

I will increase it a bit, as she gets more comfortable with the gun,,,, she is used to a 38
I want to be able to shoot the same ammo out of my .40 carbine, and I am afraid this load is a bit light for a barrel that long