Hiperfire trigger problem in PCC

[LayDShtr]

Howdy
Firearm: Smith and Wesson Response 9mm
Customization: Replaced the stock trigger with Hiperfire 24C Competition, green springs
Issue: doubles and triples, some light strikes

I just installed this trigger a few days ago. I ran it in USPSA-style league and was getting occasional doubles. I was almost DQ'd for ND but I was on target each time, so no DQ. The RO asked if I was running a binary trigger, and after discussing my upgrade, he suggested I was bump-firing the trigger and I needed to practice with it more to get used to the lighter trigger. Fair enough.

Yesterday, at Steel Challenge this time, during the first stage the trigger was fine. I was paying really close attention to trigger control. But at the third stage, it started doubling, and then tripling. I voluntarily scratched my PCC for the last stage and shot the RO's PCC which has the exact same Hiperfire trigger and springs. It shot it well, and the trigger felt different, better.
The RO stayed after the shoot and looked at my rifle. He cracked it open, all looked fine. He dry fired it a few times and said the reset felt funny, like it was almost binary. He then shot a couple of magazines and it started doubling and tripling on him, and when he ejected chambered but unfired rounds, it showed light strikes. Multiple times.
As a third opinion, another RO shot the rifle and it did the same thing. They both stated something is wrong with the trigger.

Last night when I got home, I changed the springs out to the red (medium) springs, and verified the hammer spring was not installed wrong. I will try it with the medium springs this week, but I suspect something else is going on. Is there a chance the Response is built in such a way that it is not beefy enough in the BCG and buffer system to handle such a light trigger? Anyone else running the green springs in your Response successfully?

 

[hardluk1]

You should contact the folks at Hyperfire and ask about your issue with the s&w response carbine . First be sure yours does not fall under s&w recall that could be part of your issue ? There are older response models out there so check your serial number to there recall .

MY wife and I run Hyperfire older 24c triggers with the white springs 2lb pull weight in to of our ar15 carbines for some years now and a there PDI 2lb trigger is in our AR9 . I did talk to hyperfire folks about any issues to watch out for with AR9 lowers if built off the 9mm lowers available and was told not that they have heard of but I ended up using an ar15 lower and stoner mag adaptor . Runs 100% reliably too .

MIght be s&w 9mm carbines are just not compatible with there triggers do to some design issues as they are built differently .

One of our daughters has a early s&w sport sr15 that has a hyperfire24c in it too and it has been reliable too . WE don't shoot matches but I have a training range on our property .

 

[LayDShtr]

You should contact the folks at Hyperfire and ask about your issue with the s&w response carbine . First be sure yours does not fall under s&w recall that could be part of your issue ? There are older response models out there so check your serial number to there recall .

MY wife and I run Hyperfire older 24c triggers with the white springs 2lb pull weight in to of our ar15 carbines for some years now and a there PDI 2lb trigger is in our AR9 . I did talk to hyperfire folks about any issues to watch out for with AR9 lowers if built off the 9mm lowers available and was told not that they have heard of but I ended up using an ar15 lower and stoner mag adaptor . Runs 100% reliably too .

MIght be s&w 9mm carbines are just not compatible with there triggers do to some design issues as they are built differently .

One of our daughters has an early s&w sport sr15 that has a hyperfire24c in it too and it has been reliable too . WE don't shoot matches but I have a training range on our property .

Thank you for your reply.
Mine is new, post-recall.
I've read that folks are using the Hiperfire 24C in their SW M&P 12-22 successfully. I guess if a 15-22 can run it, the Response shouldn't have a problem. I will test it Wednesday with the medium springs and if it does the same thing, I'll contact the company for troubleshooting.

 

[LayDShtr]

After changing out the springs to medium, which would up the trigger weight from about 2 lbs to about 3 lbs, the trigger problem is actually worse. I just barely touch the trigger and it goes almost full auto.
I took a couple of videos to email to Hiperfire.
For now, this thing is a safety hazard, so I will remove the Hiperfire trigger and reinstall the factory trigger.

 

[LayDShtr]

While I am waiting for a reply from Hiperfire tomorrow, I took the rifle back apart. Closer inspection of the trigger revealed hammer disconnect showing a wide gap. I thought this was abnormal, so I took it out and put the original Response trigger back in. Same gap. Is this normal, or am I installing something backward in both triggers? The stock trigger is very basic, I can’t see how I am messing up installation, but I am a newbie to triggers, so very possible:

 

[LayDShtr]

I think I answered my own question, yes this is normal since the trigger wasn’t held back when I took the pic. Only a temporary catch until trigger sear takes over. It does stay captured when I hold the trigger, then sear takes over as it should when I release the trigger.
Oh well, I’m learning more about AR triggers than I ever wanted to know.

 

[LayDShtr]

Hiperfire is accepting the trigger back for warranty work. No product is perfect all the time, so good on them! No arguing was needed.
I shall report back when I hear something.

 

[hardluk1]

Hiperfire is accepting the trigger back for warranty work. No product is perfect all the time, so good on them! No arguing was needed.
I shall report back when I hear something.

If hyperfire would swap for one of there PDI triggers you would be getting a fool proof drop in unit . I have one of there black 2lb SA version in one of our AR's but seems like they had a couple different options in the PDI line .

 

[LayDShtr]

If hyperfire would swap for one of there PDI triggers you would be getting a fool proof drop in unit . I have one of there black 2lb SA version in one of our AR's but seems like they had a couple different options in the PDI line .

Interesting. They’re out of stock, though. How does this compare to the Competition trigger? What would be the benefit?

 

[hardluk1]

Interesting. They're out of stock, though. How does this compare to the Competition trigger? What would be the benefit?

I feel like its every bit as good but with out extra spring sets . Can they tell out when the pdi will be available?

 

[LayDShtr]

I feel like its every bit as good but with out extra spring sets . Can they tell out when the pdi will be available?

I haven’t checked. I’ll give the 24c a chance first to see if they can resolve. If I have to make a change I will look at the PDI line.

 

[LayDShtr]

Update: Hiperfire tested the trigger in their shop and found it to be ok. They are suspecting the pins and how they fit in the Response. They are sending the trigger back to me with a couple of sets of pins. I will try the new pins and see if there is a difference. If not, then it is the rifle being just different enough that the trigger will not work correctly.
Hiperfire has been responsive and backing their product. If it is my rifle that is the issue, then I will keep the trigger and use it in something else, like my Extar.

 

[hardluk1]

Hope your trigger issues are over with extra pin options .

 

[Tom S.]

Update: Hiperfire tested the trigger in their shop and found it to be ok. They are suspecting the pins and how they fit in the Response. They are sending the trigger back to me with a couple of sets of pins. I will try the new pins and see if there is a difference. If not, then it is the rifle being just different enough that the trigger will not work correctly.
Hiperfire has been responsive and backing their product. If it is my rifle that is the issue, then I will keep the trigger and use it in something else, like my Extar.

I'm trying to understand what difference pins would make. Anyway, good luck!

 

[LayDShtr]

I'm trying to understand what difference pins would make. Anyway, good luck!

I confused the Hiperfire technician by accidentally sending back the trigger with my stock pins instead of the Hiperfire pins. The pins are different. Just in case there was a mixup, they returned my stock pins and another set of Hiperfire pins just to make sure nothing was wrong with the first set that came with the new trigger. I did test the trigger prior with both sets of pins just to make sure it wasn’t the rifle not liking the Hiperfire pins, but it didn’t make a difference. I don’t suspect it will now either, and most likely the Response just won’t work with this trigger.

 

[hardluk1]

Well you can reinstall your stock trigger group back into your response carbine but you might add JP reduced power springs to it for a little lighter trigger pull ? Hard to guess what may or may not be happening with your s&w response if the trigger it self is not the problem when hyperfire's tech tested it in what ever firearm they used ? Very hard to find a problem with the triggers in reguler AR firearms .

 

[bamashooter]

I have run the older 24C (flat trigger) with the gray springs (lightest pull) for approx 2500 rounds. Zero issues. Both my manual and digital gauges show anywhere between 1.5 - 2 lbs.

 

[LayDShtr]

I have run the older 24C (flat trigger) with the gray springs (lightest pull) for approx 2500 rounds. Zero issues. Both my manual and digital gauges show anywhere between 1.5 - 2 lbs.

Are you running this in a Response?

 

[LayDShtr]

I have experience with milspec, ALG ACT, G2S, Geissele SSF, LaRue MBT, HiperFire EDT3, Wilson Combat TTU 2 stage, Rock River 2 stage, HiperFire HiperTouch 24C, 24E, and a couple of the Timney flavors that I can't recall the names of. In general I am fine with them all, but I like the HiperFires, Geisseles, and LaRues the best. In general I lean toward two stage triggers like the Geissele or the Larue MBT for home defense type ARs (and eschew drop in trigger units besides that new KE arms trigger), but prefer HiperFire triggers for match and hunting type setups. I am sure it is possible to have a nicer, more consistent trigger than my 24C, but I assume it would cost an obscene amount or compromise lock time/hammer energy. The 24C is what I run in my race gun, and I know TTAG did a decent amount of testing to show that their spring assist mechanism is reliable when suppressed and really dirty. Smacks the crap out of the firing pin every time. The shoe ensures consistency of placement, too. Same for the EDT3.

This is in my competition PCC, so I really want the Hiperfire to work. I am going to continue working on it. I appreciate this info!

 

[LayDShtr]

Well you can reinstall your stock trigger group back into your response carbine but you might add JP reduced power springs to it for a little lighter trigger pull ? Hard to guess what may or may not be happening with your s&w response if the trigger it self is not the problem when hyperfire's tech tested it in what ever firearm they used ? Very hard to find a problem with the triggers in reguler AR firearms .

The only thing I am seeing so far is the lower is ever so slightly wider than standard ARs. If you look at the pin length difference, it is noticeable. There may be some side to side pin walking going on, since the rifle wasn’t doubling at first. I ran about 2-300 rounds through it when I first installed the Hiperfire trigger before the problem started.

 

[LayDShtr]

I am pretty hard headed, so I’m going to figure this out. I do like the Hiperfire trigger, and I really want it to work, so the experimenting continues.
At this point I have learned way more about triggers than I ever thought I would need to know

 

[LayDShtr]

Video of what started the thread. This is what I am dealing with.

 

[hardluk1]

Act's like a FRT !

 

[bamashooter]

Are you running this in a Response?

No. Basic 15-22.

 

[saki302]

Are the pin holes too far apart on the receiver? Looks like the disconnector isn't holding it back enough to catch the sear on release, making it a binary trigger.

Do you have another AR to test the hiperfire on?

-Dave

 

[LayDShtr]

Yeah it did! Funner than hell to shoot, too!

Act's like a FRT !

 

[LayDShtr]

Are the pin holes too far apart on the receiver? Looks like the disconnector isn't holding it back enough to catch the sear on release, making it a binary trigger.

Do you have another AR to test the hiperfire on?

-Dave

That is one thing I am considering. I need to find a caliper to get an exact measurement. To the naked eye it looks fine, it the tolerances may not allow any deviation. However, it is weird that it shot fine for the first 200-300 rounds.

 

[SRH1728]

Howdy
Firearm: Smith and Wesson Response 9mm
Customization: Replaced the stock trigger with Hiperfire 24C Competition, green springs
Issue: doubles and triples, some light strikes

I just installed this trigger a few days ago. I ran it in USPSA-style league and was getting occasional doubles. I was almost DQ'd for ND but I was on target each time, so no DQ. The RO asked if I was running a binary trigger, and after discussing my upgrade, he suggested I was bump-firing the trigger and I needed to practice with it more to get used to the lighter trigger. Fair enough.

Yesterday, at Steel Challenge this time, during the first stage the trigger was fine. I was paying really close attention to trigger control. But at the third stage, it started doubling, and then tripling. I voluntarily scratched my PCC for the last stage and shot the RO's PCC which has the exact same Hiperfire trigger and springs. It shot it well, and the trigger felt different, better.
The RO stayed after the shoot and looked at my rifle. He cracked it open, all looked fine. He dry fired it a few times and said the reset felt funny, like it was almost binary. He then shot a couple of magazines and it started doubling and tripling on him, and when he ejected chambered but unfired rounds, it showed light strikes. Multiple times.
As a third opinion, another RO shot the rifle and it did the same thing. They both stated something is wrong with the trigger.

Last night when I got home, I changed the springs out to the red (medium) springs, and verified the hammer spring was not installed wrong. I will try it with the medium springs this week, but I suspect something else is going on. Is there a chance the Response is built in such a way that it is not beefy enough in the BCG and buffer system to handle such a light trigger? Anyone else running the green springs in your Response successfully?

Howdy! Having exactly the same issue as you described with a couple of exceptions. One, I'm running a RISE 140 trigger, which have been replaced once by RISE without changing the problem, and two, the firearm in question is not an S&W. It's a custom built KE Arms matching upper and lower.

I will sit in the back row, be quite, and follow the thread to see if you come to some conclusion on the cause of these malfunctions. BTW, at a steel match yesterday, 1st stage 1st string was perfect, 2nd string went to fire-hand eject, fire-hand eject and so on. Third string went to full auto. Good thing I brought a backup PCC...

 

[LayDShtr]

Howdy! Having exactly the same issue as you described with a couple of exceptions. One, I'm running a RISE 140 trigger, which have been replaced once by RISE without changing the problem, and two, the firearm in question is not an S&W. It's a custom built KE Arms matching upper and lower.

I will sit in the back row, be quite, and follow the thread to see if you come to some conclusion on the cause of these malfunctions. BTW, at a steel match yesterday, 1st stage 1st string was perfect, 2nd string went to fire-hand eject, fire-hand eject and so on. Third string went to full auto. Good thing I brought a backup PCC...

Oh boy! You had a good time for sure
Is your lower polymer? That might end up being the issue. Too much flex causing enough instability to not get the disconnect to reset on time.

 

[LayDShtr]

Ok, new info:
I found the calipers and did all the mil-spec measurements using the Hiperfire-supplied diagram below. Everything matched EXCEPT for the width of the outside of the FCG box. My caliper measurement on the Response is 1.0002, diagram shows .690 +/- .004. Makes sense, considering the Response trigger and hammer pins are indeed longer than the Hiperfire supplied pins, as pictured. The pins appear to be a different diameter but they are not, it is just coloration and lighting in the pic. And just to reiterate, I did try the Hiperfire trigger with both sets of pins with same result.
So, my questions now to the experts are:
1. Would wider outside FCG box make a difference since the grooves in stock pins are in the same place as the Hiperfire pins when centered? The inside measurement is confirmed mil-spec, so it is the width of the walls of the box that is wider than regular ARs.
2. Since it is a polymer lower, am I just getting too much flex during discharge to maintain stability?