Historcal Jamming PPK

[Tom 1951]

Having pretty much given up with other gun boards, I thought I’d fly this subject by the knowledgeable folks here at S&W Forum.
For some reason, while watching the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II, I was reminded of the attempted kidnapping of Princess Anne in 1974. The princess’ bodyguard was armed with a Walther PPK. When he tried to stop the kidnapper, the Walther jammed. After this incident, and apparently because of it, the PPK was replaced.
I’ve done a web search on the incident, looking for details and finding none except what I’ve related. I’m curious as to what calibre the gun was; I think the Metropolitan Police issued .380ACP. Also, was the cause of the jam reported – ammo, magazine, dirty pistol(!), user error (!!)? Finally, what pistol replaced the Walther and what calibre? I read in a novel that the H&K4 was used by some British authorities, but this may be pure fiction. I can’t find any references to the H&K being issued in Britain.
I know the S&W licensed Walthers had serious issues, but haven’t heard of problems with the original guns. My only experience with the breed was an ancient and well worn PPK in .32ACP (of course). It was dead reliable and a pleasure to shoot with ball ammo.

 

[armorer951]

According to Officer James Beaton's testimony in an interview, he had been shot in the shoulder prior to his attempt to draw and fire the PPK. He said that he was unable to hold the gun properly because of the injury and the gun "jammed". He doesn't provide any more details about the pistol, and whether or not he actually fired a shot, or what caliber the gun was.

The article below says he was able to "fire a round" before the gun jammed.


The Boxer That Saved a Princess: “Not Bloody Likely!” - GunsAmerica Digest


I only have one Walther, a PPK that my dad brought back from Germany after WW2. The serial number dates to 1939. It's always been reliable, although I haven't shot it very much.

 

[Rudi]

Recently, I have heard a couple stories of PPKs in .22LR being very picky about the types of ammo fed to them.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

My Arkansas PPK/S is reliable.
The Double Action trigger pull is about 25 pounds,
Otherwise it’s an excellent shooter.

 

[4T5GUY]

I don’t have any answers but you got me thinking.

I wonder why, at the same time the British Army was somewhat “clandestinely” issuing troops in Northern Ireland with Walther L66A1 .22’s. ? I know you were talking about PPK’s not PP’s. If there was a concern enough to replace the PPK it seems it would also involve the PP.

Jim

 

[ggibson511960]

My PPK/S was a jam-o-matic until I figured out that the loaded chamber indicator pin spring was broken. The pin protruded from the breach face and blocked, or impeded, fresh rounds from sliding up the breach face and chambering. I guess a loaded chamber indicator pin is a good thing, but the good gunsmiths at Walther didn't contemplate this pin jamming from a broken spring or simple dirt accumulation. It stops the gun dead cold and is difficult to diagnose. The pin doesn't always protrude and jam the cartridge feed. Compared to modern locked breach .380's (Ruger LCP) the Walter is a magnificent anachronism, well made but a flawed design that kicks more (blowback action).

 

[hittman77]

If the bodyguard was already wounded in the shoulder and the PPK malfunctioned after one round ….. I think about a limp wrist.

My PPK (380) from the early 60’s has never failed me once.

 

[bulletslap]

In my limited experience if you can get a PPK to get through 50 rounds without a stoppage, go buy a lottery ticket.

In the 80’s I owned quite a few of them, the most reliable, and it wasn’t that reliable was a Waffenamt marked 7.65 version that was a little rough.

I have owned PP copies that ran fairly well. A Hungarian PA-63 in 9mm Makarov was the best of them, and my son owns a Bersa in .380 that runs pretty well.

The PP/PPK design is right at 100 years old, and was very innovative, but i steer clear of them. Your experience may differ greatly.

 

[oysterer]

If I had a body guard with a PPK I'd find another. Ridiculous. They watch too many Bond movies or something.

 

[TheTinMan]

A PPK/S was the first handgun I ever bought. And the first gun I ever got rid of. Jam-o-matic deluxe! Very picky about Ammo and even with the best (for it) it still was unreliable. Heavy as sin too for a “compact” pistol in 380.

 

[pasound]

100+ year old design is not the problem. I had two Walthers which were both picky with ammo. One was blue, one stainless, both late 80's vintage, both Interarms distros. 380 ammo back then was scarce and expensive, and now, it still is. I really think only European 380 was reliable in them. The 1911 design is 111 years old, and yet dozens of makers are still copying the design. And most shoot any 45ACP.

 

[BB57]

The PP was designed in 1929 and the PPK in 1931 - so still a bit short of 100 years old.

I have a pair of ex Austrian police PPs in .32 ACP and they are a pleasure to shoot. They are near 100% reliable - defined as function with no failures for at least 200 rounds on average - with FMJ as well as with 60 gr silver tip and 60 gr XTP hollow points.

I have a couple Ranger made PPK/S pistols in .380 ACP (made for Interarms distribution in the US after Walther severed it’s agreement with Manurhin in 1984). They are both 100% reliable with FMJ, but only one of the, will go 200 rounds without failure with 90 gr XTP hollow points.

I also have FEG AP9S and APK9S pistols (steel frame commercial semi clones of the PP and PPK/S in .380 ACP. They have more generously cut chambers and are 100 percent reliable with both FMJ and hollow point ammo.

I also have an APK7S, the same as the APK9S except in 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP). It’s also reliable with both FMJ and 60 gr XTP.

——

There are some caveats:

- They are not Glocks. They need to be run wet, and cleaning them after a range session is a good idea. Most blowback’s won’t fair well on a 2000-3000 round between cleaning schedule as the blow back design by default puts more crud in the action.

- The issue with many PP series pistols is that the magazines have seen better days. A new MecGar magazine will cure a lot of its with a PPK/S or PPK.

- It needs to be held firmly. A PP series pistol in .32 ACP is pleasant to shoot. In .380 ACP the recoil is much more noticeable. Between that snappier recoil and a tendency for people using a modern high grip to get bit by the slide, shooters can start anticipating the recoil, and that will lead to reliability issues. They naturally blame the gun.

- PP series pistols can be picky about ammo. You need to find what it likes.

- the recoil system depends heavily on proper spring forces for both the hammer spring and the recoil spring as both affect the recoil and slide velocity. If you run “extra power” recoil springs, you are going to adversely affect the recoil. Conversely if the springs are tired, if you don’t replace them, you will affect the reliability. If the recoil starts feeling or sounding metallic, it’s the slide bottoming out on the front of the trigger guard, which is effectively a buffer to prevent it from hitting the frame. When the recoil and hammer springs get weak. The trigger guard starts hitting the frame and you’ll start to hear and feel a “ping”. That’s your cue that you waited a couple hundred rounds too long to change the springs.

 

[4T5GUY]

I should have mentioned that my 1935 PPK .32acp and 1937 PP .32acp have always been flawless. I can’t imagine either running different before I got them and they’re still running perfectly. I confidently CC’d the PP for years with no worries at all. The L66A1 eats anything, never an issue and is accurate for what it’s intention was.

The licensed “clones” are a totally different discussion. It seems that this thread might be going in that direction. The last S&W one that my friend/FFL enabler wanted help with was a total mess. What a disgrace to see the S&W logo on it.

Jim

 

[K Frame Keith]

Owned three. One German Police surplus .32 and two Interarms marked in .380. Non were reliable.

 

[sipowicz]

I had a 66 PPK. Only unreliable gun I ever owned.

 

[Grayfox]

Interesting. I currently own 5 of the PP series pistols. A German .32 PP, an Interarms/Ranger 380 PPK, a Walther/Interarms import.380 PPK/S, a S&W PPK/S-1 .32 and a German/Umarex PPK/s .22
None of the .380s or .32s has ever jammed. Totally reliable with any ammo.
The .22 is known to be ammo sensitive. But simply keeping with high velocity ammo cures that issue.

As for the op's question: I believe its reasonable to believe that the bodyguards injury led to the malfunction.

 

[texmex]

Even though the PPK was double action, the British troops were probably required to carry chamber empty. The military always seems to worry more about accidental discharges than they do about being prepared for an emergency. If the officer was wounded and unable to "grasp the PPK properly", maybe he jammed it trying to chamber a round.

 

[lihpster]

As I understand it, the officer was able to fire one shot and then the gun malfunctioned. "Jammed" being a term used by the uninitiated to describe a stoppage of any kind. I have even seen it used on the news to describe a pistol running out of ammo. With the officer being shot previous, with self stated lessened ability to hold his weapon, a malfunction seems a likely outcome.
As to the British being more concerned with ADs than being prepared, the stated reason, that I read, for going with the Glock over the HP was the ability of the Glock to be "able to be carried safely yet ready to go". They cited green on blue attacks in Afghanistan, I believe. I'm not sure I agree with their take on the HPs ability to be carried safely, yet ready to go, but I ain't the ones using them.

 

[6string]

The original Carl Walther factory was located in what would be East Germany at the end of WWII.
Fritz Walther escaped with blueprints of their designs. The rules of the Allied occupation of West Germany prevented Walther from simply restarting production. So, he negotiated agreements with several established manufacturers, including Hämmerli in Switzerland, Beretta in Italy, and Manurhin in France.
The latter (Manurhin) made several versions of the PP and PPK in large numbers. Hämmerli produced the Olympia target pistol, which in later changes eventually became the famous 208 target pistol, still revered by many as the finest .22 target pistol of all time. Beretta made the remarkable model 1 and model 2 .22 rifles which could operate as either a bolt action or semiauto. You can actually switch between firing modes while shooting! They are wonderful to handle or shoot!
Walther did not restart production in W. Germany until the 1950s.
A visit to the Walther forum will lead to lots more info.
In my opinion, nobody, with the exception Hämmerli, matched the beautiful fit and finish of the pre-war Walthers.

 

[CajunBass]

I've got three PPK/S's. Two are Uramex 22's. Those are somewhat unreliable with run of the mill bulk pack type ammo. They only malfunction with the first shot fired D/A for some reason. After that, all S/A shots work fine. When using "hot" ammo, like CCI Mini-Mags, or Stingers, it doesn't matter. They work every time, D/A or S/A and shoot lights out. Great little guns with the exception of the heavy D/A trigger, which I have found to be manageable with practice.

The other is a "Fort Smith" 380 I've heard them called. A current production model purchased NIB this year. I'm not sure where it was actually made, being that it's marked Ulm and Fort Smith, but that little gun is great. I was surprised the first time I tried the trigger. I had heard how heavy the D/A was, and my experience with the 22's had done nothing to make me expect otherwise, but the 380 has a VERY nice trigger, especially the D/A. Better IMHO than any small frame revolver I've ever owned. My trigger gauge only goes to 8 pounds and the D/A is heavier than that, but not much I don't think. S/A is about 4.5, crisp with a short reset. Not at all what I expected.

It's never malfunctioned with any ammo I've tried, FMJ, HP, and even some weird NovX solid copper HP's I ended up with back when 380 ammo was really hard to find. It seems to be very accurate to me, and I don't think of myself as a very good shot. I don't really find the recoil objectional, but it definately won't be mistaken for a 22. Yes, the sights are small, so for me, a drop of orange nail polish is essential. I also wish they had a slide release, but they don't so that's that.

I suppose the biggest downside is that they are not inexpensive. There are a lot of other guns you can buy for less, but I wanted a Walther PPK in 380, so I said to heck with it. I picked up a Bianchi 100 IWB holster for it, but I don't carry it often. It's just one of those guns I like having.