Historcal Jamming PPK

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Tom 1951

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Having pretty much given up with other gun boards, I thought I'd fly this subject by the knowledgeable folks here at S&W Forum.
For some reason, while watching the funeral of Queen Elizabeth II, I was reminded of the attempted kidnapping of Princess Anne in 1974. The princess' bodyguard was armed with a Walther PPK. When he tried to stop the kidnapper, the Walther jammed. After this incident, and apparently because of it, the PPK was replaced.
I've done a web search on the incident, looking for details and finding none except what I've related. I'm curious as to what calibre the gun was; I think the Metropolitan Police issued .380ACP. Also, was the cause of the jam reported – ammo, magazine, dirty pistol(!), user error (!!)? Finally, what pistol replaced the Walther and what calibre? I read in a novel that the H&K4 was used by some British authorities, but this may be pure fiction. I can't find any references to the H&K being issued in Britain.
I know the S&W licensed Walthers had serious issues, but haven't heard of problems with the original guns. My only experience with the breed was an ancient and well worn PPK in .32ACP (of course). It was dead reliable and a pleasure to shoot with ball ammo.
 
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According to Officer James Beaton's testimony in an interview, he had been shot in the shoulder prior to his attempt to draw and fire the PPK. He said that he was unable to hold the gun properly because of the injury and the gun "jammed". He doesn't provide any more details about the pistol, and whether or not he actually fired a shot, or what caliber the gun was.

The article below says he was able to "fire a round" before the gun jammed.


The Boxer That Saved a Princess: "Not Bloody Likely!" - GunsAmerica Digest


I only have one Walther, a PPK that my dad brought back from Germany after WW2. The serial number dates to 1939. It's always been reliable, although I haven't shot it very much.


 
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My Arkansas PPK/S is reliable.
The Double Action trigger pull is about 25 pounds,
Otherwise it's an excellent shooter.
 

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I don't have any answers but you got me thinking.

I wonder why, at the same time the British Army was somewhat "clandestinely" issuing troops in Northern Ireland with Walther L66A1 .22's. ? I know you were talking about PPK's not PP's. If there was a concern enough to replace the PPK it seems it would also involve the PP.

Jim
 

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My PPK/S was a jam-o-matic until I figured out that the loaded chamber indicator pin spring was broken. The pin protruded from the breach face and blocked, or impeded, fresh rounds from sliding up the breach face and chambering. I guess a loaded chamber indicator pin is a good thing, but the good gunsmiths at Walther didn't contemplate this pin jamming from a broken spring or simple dirt accumulation. It stops the gun dead cold and is difficult to diagnose. The pin doesn't always protrude and jam the cartridge feed. Compared to modern locked breach .380's (Ruger LCP) the Walter is a magnificent anachronism, well made but a flawed design that kicks more (blowback action).
 
In my limited experience if you can get a PPK to get through 50 rounds without a stoppage, go buy a lottery ticket.

In the 80's I owned quite a few of them, the most reliable, and it wasn't that reliable was a Waffenamt marked 7.65 version that was a little rough.

I have owned PP copies that ran fairly well. A Hungarian PA-63 in 9mm Makarov was the best of them, and my son owns a Bersa in .380 that runs pretty well.

The PP/PPK design is right at 100 years old, and was very innovative, but i steer clear of them. Your experience may differ greatly.
 
100+ year old design is not the problem. I had two Walthers which were both picky with ammo. One was blue, one stainless, both late 80's vintage, both Interarms distros. 380 ammo back then was scarce and expensive, and now, it still is. I really think only European 380 was reliable in them. The 1911 design is 111 years old, and yet dozens of makers are still copying the design. And most shoot any 45ACP.
 
The PP was designed in 1929 and the PPK in 1931 - so still a bit short of 100 years old.

I have a pair of ex Austrian police PPs in .32 ACP and they are a pleasure to shoot. They are near 100% reliable - defined as function with no failures for at least 200 rounds on average - with FMJ as well as with 60 gr silver tip and 60 gr XTP hollow points.

I have a couple Ranger made PPK/S pistols in .380 ACP (made for Interarms distribution in the US after Walther severed it's agreement with Manurhin in 1984). They are both 100% reliable with FMJ, but only one of the, will go 200 rounds without failure with 90 gr XTP hollow points.

I also have FEG AP9S and APK9S pistols (steel frame commercial semi clones of the PP and PPK/S in .380 ACP. They have more generously cut chambers and are 100 percent reliable with both FMJ and hollow point ammo.

I also have an APK7S, the same as the APK9S except in 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP). It's also reliable with both FMJ and 60 gr XTP.

——

There are some caveats:

- They are not Glocks. They need to be run wet, and cleaning them after a range session is a good idea. Most blowback's won't fair well on a 2000-3000 round between cleaning schedule as the blow back design by default puts more crud in the action.

- The issue with many PP series pistols is that the magazines have seen better days. A new MecGar magazine will cure a lot of its with a PPK/S or PPK.

- It needs to be held firmly. A PP series pistol in .32 ACP is pleasant to shoot. In .380 ACP the recoil is much more noticeable. Between that snappier recoil and a tendency for people using a modern high grip to get bit by the slide, shooters can start anticipating the recoil, and that will lead to reliability issues. They naturally blame the gun.

- PP series pistols can be picky about ammo. You need to find what it likes.

- the recoil system depends heavily on proper spring forces for both the hammer spring and the recoil spring as both affect the recoil and slide velocity. If you run "extra power" recoil springs, you are going to adversely affect the recoil. Conversely if the springs are tired, if you don't replace them, you will affect the reliability. If the recoil starts feeling or sounding metallic, it's the slide bottoming out on the front of the trigger guard, which is effectively a buffer to prevent it from hitting the frame. When the recoil and hammer springs get weak. The trigger guard starts hitting the frame and you'll start to hear and feel a "ping". That's your cue that you waited a couple hundred rounds too long to change the springs.
 
I should have mentioned that my 1935 PPK .32acp and 1937 PP .32acp have always been flawless. I can't imagine either running different before I got them and they're still running perfectly. I confidently CC'd the PP for years with no worries at all. The L66A1 eats anything, never an issue and is accurate for what it's intention was.

The licensed "clones" are a totally different discussion. It seems that this thread might be going in that direction. The last S&W one that my friend/FFL enabler wanted help with was a total mess. What a disgrace to see the S&W logo on it.

Jim
 
Interesting. I currently own 5 of the PP series pistols. A German .32 PP, an Interarms/Ranger 380 PPK, a Walther/Interarms import.380 PPK/S, a S&W PPK/S-1 .32 and a German/Umarex PPK/s .22
None of the .380s or .32s has ever jammed. Totally reliable with any ammo.
The .22 is known to be ammo sensitive. But simply keeping with high velocity ammo cures that issue.

As for the op's question: I believe its reasonable to believe that the bodyguards injury led to the malfunction.
 
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Even though the PPK was double action, the British troops were probably required to carry chamber empty. The military always seems to worry more about accidental discharges than they do about being prepared for an emergency. If the officer was wounded and unable to "grasp the PPK properly", maybe he jammed it trying to chamber a round.
 
As I understand it, the officer was able to fire one shot and then the gun malfunctioned. "Jammed" being a term used by the uninitiated to describe a stoppage of any kind. I have even seen it used on the news to describe a pistol running out of ammo. With the officer being shot previous, with self stated lessened ability to hold his weapon, a malfunction seems a likely outcome.
As to the British being more concerned with ADs than being prepared, the stated reason, that I read, for going with the Glock over the HP was the ability of the Glock to be "able to be carried safely yet ready to go". They cited green on blue attacks in Afghanistan, I believe. I'm not sure I agree with their take on the HPs ability to be carried safely, yet ready to go, but I ain't the ones using them.
 
The original Carl Walther factory was located in what would be East Germany at the end of WWII.
Fritz Walther escaped with blueprints of their designs. The rules of the Allied occupation of West Germany prevented Walther from simply restarting production. So, he negotiated agreements with several established manufacturers, including Hämmerli in Switzerland, Beretta in Italy, and Manurhin in France.
The latter (Manurhin) made several versions of the PP and PPK in large numbers. Hämmerli produced the Olympia target pistol, which in later changes eventually became the famous 208 target pistol, still revered by many as the finest .22 target pistol of all time. Beretta made the remarkable model 1 and model 2 .22 rifles which could operate as either a bolt action or semiauto. You can actually switch between firing modes while shooting! They are wonderful to handle or shoot!
Walther did not restart production in W. Germany until the 1950s.
A visit to the Walther forum will lead to lots more info.
In my opinion, nobody, with the exception Hämmerli, matched the beautiful fit and finish of the pre-war Walthers.
 
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I've got three PPK/S's. Two are Uramex 22's. Those are somewhat unreliable with run of the mill bulk pack type ammo. They only malfunction with the first shot fired D/A for some reason. After that, all S/A shots work fine. When using "hot" ammo, like CCI Mini-Mags, or Stingers, it doesn't matter. They work every time, D/A or S/A and shoot lights out. Great little guns with the exception of the heavy D/A trigger, which I have found to be manageable with practice.

The other is a "Fort Smith" 380 I've heard them called. A current production model purchased NIB this year. I'm not sure where it was actually made, being that it's marked Ulm and Fort Smith, but that little gun is great. I was surprised the first time I tried the trigger. I had heard how heavy the D/A was, and my experience with the 22's had done nothing to make me expect otherwise, but the 380 has a VERY nice trigger, especially the D/A. Better IMHO than any small frame revolver I've ever owned. My trigger gauge only goes to 8 pounds and the D/A is heavier than that, but not much I don't think. S/A is about 4.5, crisp with a short reset. Not at all what I expected.

It's never malfunctioned with any ammo I've tried, FMJ, HP, and even some weird NovX solid copper HP's I ended up with back when 380 ammo was really hard to find. It seems to be very accurate to me, and I don't think of myself as a very good shot. I don't really find the recoil objectional, but it definately won't be mistaken for a 22. Yes, the sights are small, so for me, a drop of orange nail polish is essential. I also wish they had a slide release, but they don't so that's that.

I suppose the biggest downside is that they are not inexpensive. There are a lot of other guns you can buy for less, but I wanted a Walther PPK in 380, so I said to heck with it. I picked up a Bianchi 100 IWB holster for it, but I don't carry it often. It's just one of those guns I like having.
 
The Walther was designed to shoot 32 acp and the change to the 380 made it a jammo-matic. The German army used the 32acp not the 380 in both wars. The 380 was substandard for them and did not pass the penetration test of putting a horse down with a head shot or punching through a Helmut like the 7.65mm did in German Army tests.
 
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4T5GUY said:
I should have mentioned that my 1935 PPK .32acp and 1937 PP .32acp have always been flawless. I can't imagine either running different before I got them and they're still running perfectly. I confidently CC'd the PP for years with no worries at all. The L66A1 eats anything, never an issue and is accurate for what it's intention was.

The licensed "clones" are a totally different discussion. It seems that this thread might be going in that direction. The last S&W one that my friend/FFL enabler wanted help with was a total mess. What a disgrace to see the S&W logo on it.

Jim
Click to expand...

I have an L66A1 as well. It's also near perfect with just about anything - provided I limit it to 8 rounds in the magazine. But that's a magazine issue, there are no new replacements, and buying a used one is a $100+ gamble.

I had an S&W made PPK/S. My wife bought it for me. It was unreliable from the start and was eventually subject to not one but two recalls. At recall number 2, I traded it to the local gun shop on a second stainless steel Ranger made PPK/S.

Alll S&W had to do was leave the design alone, but instead they messed with the tang, messed with the grip frame and made a few other "improvements".

——

As far as licensed clones go, the Manurhin made PP series pistols were better than the Walthers made during that time period (mid 50s to 1984).

During that time period Walther sent slide and frame forgings across the border to Manurhin who then machined, finished and assembled Manurhin marked pistols. Manurhin also machined and finished frames and small parts, and then sent them with a machined but unfinished and unroll marked slide to Walther. Walther then roll marked, heat treated and finished the slide, and then assembled the pistol and called it a Walther "made in Germany". Given the two different finishing processes the bluing on the slide and small parts normally doesn't quite match the bluing on the slide.

After 1984 when Walther cancelled the agreement and produced the PP series entirely in house, quality suffered.
 
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lihpster said:
As I understand it, the officer was able to fire one shot and then the gun malfunctioned. "Jammed" being a term used by the uninitiated to describe a stoppage of any kind. I have even seen it used on the news to describe a pistol running out of ammo. With the officer being shot previous, with self stated lessened ability to hold his weapon, a malfunction seems a likely outcome.
As to the British being more concerned with ADs than being prepared, the stated reason, that I read, for going with the Glock over the HP was the ability of the Glock to be "able to be carried safely yet ready to go". They cited green on blue attacks in Afghanistan, I believe. I'm not sure I agree with their take on the HPs ability to be carried safely, yet ready to go, but I ain't the ones using them.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where the Browning HP found it's way into the discussion, but I agree with the concerns about the Glock, at least for concealed carry. I'm not one to ever recommend a Glock be carried in concealed carry as it was designed for use in a properly designed duty holster than both fully covers the trigger and allows totally un impeded reholstering of the pistol.

Unless the concealed carry user understands that and uses a holster that keeps the trigger fully covered, and is easily removable so the Glock pistol can be reholstered with the holder and handgun out in front where the shooter can verify the trigger is unobstructed, it's a "Glock Leg" waiting to be born.

—-

The Walther PP series were the first semi auto pistols to be equipped with a DA trigger and Walther included a decocking lever in the design. It was incredibly innovative for 1929 and in contrast to the Glock was designed with an eye towards concealed carry as well as duty use.

The original intent was for the lever to be used to de cock the pistol after firing, with the lever being returned to the up position. It's use as a decocking lever and then left in the down position as a safety was at most an option. It's use as a "safety" as a default use was a lawyer inspired change decades later.

Stating it was a safety cleared up any import point issues after 1968 for the PP and PPK/S and in the last 5 overly litigious decades since we screwed up and allowed lawyers to advertise, it has added a layer of lawsuit protection.

In reality the PP series have heavy DA triggers with long trigger pulls, and the DA pull not something that can be lightened due to the geometry of the design.

Once you master it, the long heavy DA pull isn't an impediment to accuracy, and it makes it very suitable for concealed carry with the decocker lever up and the pistol ready to fire. You really have to stuff it into the holster hard with an obstruction in the trigger guard to keep it go bang, and if you put your thumb over the back of the hammer, you feel it coming back as the hammer is pulled, just like a revolver.

In effect, the PP took those DA revolver "safety" concepts and applied them to a semi auto pistol.
 
jeeps said:
The Walther was designed to shoot 32 acp and the change to the 380 made it a jammo-matic. The German army used the 32acp not the 380 in both wars. The 380 was substandard for them and did not pass the penetration test of putting a horse down with a head shot or punching through a Helmut like the 7.65mm did in German Army tests.
Click to expand...

I do ballistic testing jus becuz, and in my experience the .32 ACP is badly under rated. It offers identical or slightly better penetration in ballistic gel than a comparable .380 ACP load. In terms of hollow point performance a 60 gr XTP will penetrate a bit over 12", and expand, at the 1050 fps and 1100 fps obtainable in the PPK and PPK/S.

You get a bit smaller wound track, but you get an extra round in the magazine and the ability to deliver the lower recoiling .32 ACP rounds much faster and with better accuracy. I don't feel any more under gunned with a .32 ACP than with a .380 ACP.
 
lihpster said:
As to the British being more concerned with ADs than being prepared, the stated reason, that I read, for going with the Glock over the HP was the ability of the Glock to be "able to be carried safely yet ready to go". They cited green on blue attacks in Afghanistan, I believe. I'm not sure I agree with their take on the HPs ability to be carried safely, yet ready to go, but I ain't the ones using them.
Click to expand...

Given that most BHPs owned by the UK MOD had the original miniscule thumb safeties, getting the pistol off safe quickly could be a major issue. Song and story had it that, in different parts of the world, some users of the BHP simply carried cocked & unlocked.
 
Both my PPKs, one is 32 Manhurin manufacture, the other being a 380 ULM manufacture from 1965 are very reliable with aguila ammo. Never had an issue with any of them.
 
WR Moore said:
Given that most BHPs owned by the UK MOD had the original miniscule thumb safeties, getting the pistol off safe quickly could be a major issue. Song and story had it that, in different parts of the world, some users of the BHP simply carried cocked & unlocked.
Click to expand...

Carrying in condition 3 is common in many militaries for various reasons.

The Israelis employed their Hi Powers that way, but that wasn't due to the safety. It was due to their having a hodgepodge of surplus semi auto pistols and needing a manual of arms that worked with all of them.

——

Other militaries use and continue to use Condition 1 as the threats don't usually suddenly appear without at least a few seconds warning and the troops involved have time to rack the slide. The trade off in time and the need for two hands is offset by the greater difficulty of poorly trained troops having a negligent discharge when they have to chamber a round first.

——

The major problem with the Hi Power safety is that it is mushy and doesn't have a noticeable click that can be felt and heard when it is applied or removed.

I have a number of Hi Powers and P9 copies with both early small, and later larger safeties and have never found the small safety to be a problem when drawing and firing the gun.

The exception to this occurs when someone combines the small safety with a thicker and higher than normal set of grips as is the case with the FEG P9 below. The top for the grip is slightly higher to better accommodate a modern high grip, and while not a huge increase in the top of the grip panel, when combined with the thicker grip panel it's enough to bury the small safety enough to make it harder to hit with the thumb.

But that's not the gun's fault, it's a failure of the shooter to consider the whole thing as a system when making so called "upgrades".

IMG_0841_zpsrcukw8sa.jpg
 
I have a blued Interarms PPK in 380 acp that has eaten absolutely everything I've ever fed it, from hollow points of various designs to flat and round nose FMJ's. My only complaint with it is it's a rip to get the last round in the magazine and not the easiest slide to rack. Other than that she's a gem.

The Preacher
 
My 70's era PPK/S in .22 LR won't reliably work with any ammo except CCI Mini-Mags. My guess is the higher velocity round. An unreliable and disappointing pistol IMO. A new set of spring(s) might help the issue. I plan to find it a new home.
 
40 yrs ago when I first got into handguns most autos were expected to jam occasionally.I remember people talking about a model that would be reliable enough to carry.That why the clearing drills were a mandatory part of your training.The Walther PPK /PPKs is from that time frame with an older design dating back a few more decades.
 
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