Hodgdon Reloading Data Center VS Hornady Reloading Handbook

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gsparesa

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Novice here and I've decided to start reloading. I decided that my first reloads are going to be 357 ammunition for my S&W 627-5 PC with a 5 inch barrel. I purchased Hodgdon H110 pistol powder. I purchased Winchester WSPM primers. I purchased Hornady 125gr HP-XTP bullets. I read the Hornady 8th Edition Reloading Handbook. Page 922 of the Hornady Reloading Handbook lists the setup criteria for their load suggestions. Hornady states that they used a Colt Python handgun with a 8", 1-in-16" twist barrel. Page 923 of the Hornady Reloading Handbook states that for their 125 gr bullets that the starting load for H110 powder should be 17.4 gr and the max load is 19.9 gr. The last sentance on page 922 of the Hornady Reloading Handbook states "Do not deviate from the printed data" :eek:

I went on-line and found the Winchester/Hodgdon Reloading Data Center. I was shocked what was listed as the starting and maximum loads for the 125 Hdy XTP bullet using H110 powder. Hodgdon data was based on a 10", 1-in-18.75" twist barrel. Hodgdon lists the starting loads as 21.0 gr and the maximum load as 22.0 gr. All kinds of Bells went off, Hodgdon's 357 load recipe contradicts the Hornady Reloading Handbook for start and maximum loads. Which manufacture should I follow? Is the lower velocities listed in the Hornady Reloading Handbook safer?

On the Hodgdon WEB site, lists a few warnings. " H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%." What is Hodgdon's point of reference? The start or maximum loads?
"Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%. " :eek:
Please help me understand this warning. I understand the H110 is slow burning powder and needs time to build pressure. I just don't understand the 3% limit. The difference between 22 gr and 21 gr is 4.55%. That exceeds 3%, if the point of reference is 22 grains. 3% from 21.0 gr starting load is 20.37 gr. Is 20.37 gr the minimum reduction for H110 powder? Do I now just ignore the information that is printed in the Hornady Reloading Handbook?
 
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That's a tough one,but I would tend to go with the bullet makers data if you want to use that powder.A more cautious approach would be using a powder that different sources at least overlapped on.
 
You could start by sending a copy of this post to both Hornady and Hodgdon, via e-mail. It would be interesting to hear what each has to say.

Personally, as a new reloader, I suggest that you start by loading a mid-range load at say 1000 fps, using Unique or possibly AA#5, with a 158 grain bullet. I would suggest a lead SWC, although a plated or jacketed bullet will work just as well. Get some experience under you belt. There is no need to beat yourself up or the gun with magnum loads.

If you are stuck on loading magnum loads, you may want to consider AA#7 or AA#9, or some other powder that doesn't pose the same problems as H110, at least until you hear back from both Hornady and Hodgdon.

Still another option is to start with the lower charge weight (Hornady's). Start by loading 10 rounds at 17.5 grains. Load one round into the gun at a time and test them over a chronograph. Make sure you see a hole in the target after each shot to be sure there is nothing stuck in the barrel, or use a wooden dowel to be sure the barrel is clear of any obstructions. After 10 shots increase the powder charge slightly and check the next batch until you hit the velocity you want.

My strongest advice is to start with the mid range loads until you have some experience, or better yet find an experienced reloader to help and teach you.
 
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First off, take a breath! WOW! ;)

I will tell you this, there is NO WAY POSSIBLE that H110/W296 is going to blow up your gun, NO WAY!

Sticking a bullet and then following it with a full charge? Oh yeah.

H110/W296 is not to be reduced more than 3% over the maximum load.
When I start out I ALWAYS use the powder manufacturer's data because they for sure have pressure testing equipment. Maybe Hornady does, maybe they don't. Bullet manufacturer's get the last consideration when it come to loads. They get first consideration when it comes to impact and BC and what I want to hunt and want to hit at a certain distance. Then I pick a powder to get me there.


Ignore is a strong word. Think of it as using a different source. ;)

H110/W296 is one of the go to powders for this and other magnum handgun rounds. It just will not work if it isn't at the top of it's pressure range. That being said, the top of that range is lower than most other powders but it gives higher velocity.

If you want a suggestion. You should have started with 38spl type loads and got some experience under your belt before venturing into the magnum territory. Just me.

H110/W296, they are the exact same powders only put in different bottles per the manufacturer, is a great powder. If you want a powder that has a less finicky pressure range, try 2400. While you can reduce it more than H110/W296 and not get into too much trouble, it certainly will not perform as well as it can at the top ranges of it's pressure either.

Powders just seem to work much, much better when they are at their respective optimum pressure.

At 22grs, how much more could you get in a case if you wanted to? Not that you should, just if you could and still seat a bullet? Not enough to get the firearm to test pressure, and certainly not with that light of a bullet.

Personally, I would load 6 of 3 weights. 21gr, 21.5gr and 22.0gr, seat the bullet in the crimp groove or cannelure and crimp the snot out of it, shoot them real slow and listen for a squib and go from there. Got a chronograph? If not, get one. It will tell you a lot about being close to a dangerous threshold. Wide ES and SD numbers are an indication that something isn't right with the load.

Have fun, be safe! ;)
 
wantmoresmiths said:
You could start by sending a copy of this post to both Hornady and Hodgdon, via e-mail. It would be interesting to hear what each has to say.

Personally, as a new reloader, I suggest that you start by loading a mid-range load at say 1000 fps, using Unique or possibly AA#5, with a 158 grain bullet. I would suggest a lead SWC, although a plated or jacketed bullet will work just as well. Get some experience under you belt. There is no need to beat yourself up or the gun with magnum loads.

If you are stuck on loading magnum loads, you may want to consider AA#7 or AA#9, or some other powder that doesn't pose the same problems as H110, at least until you hear back from both Hornady and Hodgdon.

Still another option is to start with the lower charge weight (Hornady's). Start by loading 10 rounds at 17.5 grains. Load one round into the gun at a time and test them over a chronograph. Make sure you see a hole in the target after each shot to be sure there is nothing stuck in the barrel, or use a wooden dowel to be sure the barrel is clear of any obstructions. After 10 shots increase the powder charge slightly and check the next batch until you hit the velocity you want.

My strongest advice is to start with the mid range loads until you have some experience, or better yet find an experienced reloader to help and teach you.
Click to expand...

I sent both Hornady and Hodgdon email yesterday. If and when I get a reply, I will post.
The Hornady handbook list A no.9, H 110, HS-7 and WIn 296 is that order for powders that " produced excellent results". When I was at the guns store, I tried to purchase Accurate #9. The gun store did not carry A No. 9. So, the next powder on the list was H 110.
 
I'm not sure where you are located, but here in PA the Accurate line of powders are often difficult to purchase, as not many shops carry them.

Skip gave you an excellent piece of advise. If you are determined that your loads must be magnum loads, consider 2400. I forgot all about that powder. It is an excellent choice for magnum loads.

For what it's worth, I shoot 38 specials out of my 627-5, at a 120 power factor (bullet weight X velocity / 1000). I use a 158 grain Berry's plated bullet at 775 fps. It's a nice soft shooting, accurate load that I can use for ICORE competitions.
 
I had the same contradiction as you. with 21 grains of 296 i was getting flattened primers. I backed down to 19 grains and Im much more comfortable with it. No flattened primers and it seems like its still a pretty hot load.
 
Skip Sackett said:
First off, take a breath! WOW! ;)

I will tell you this, there is NO WAY POSSIBLE that H110/W296 is going to blow up your gun, NO WAY!

Sticking a bullet and then following it with a full charge? Oh yeah.

H110/W296 is not to be reduced more than 3% over the maximum load.
When I start out I ALWAYS use the powder manufacturer's data because they for sure have pressure testing equipment. Maybe Hornady does, maybe they don't. Bullet manufacturer's get the last consideration when it come to loads. They get first consideration when it comes to impact and BC and what I want to hunt and want to hit at a certain distance. Then I pick a powder to get me there.


Ignore is a strong word. Think of it as using a different source. ;)

H110/W296 is one of the go to powders for this and other magnum handgun rounds. It just will not work if it isn't at the top of it's pressure range. That being said, the top of that range is lower than most other powders but it gives higher velocity.

If you want a suggestion. You should have started with 38spl type loads and got some experience under your belt before venturing into the magnum territory. Just me.

H110/W296, they are the exact same powders only put in different bottles per the manufacturer, is a great powder. If you want a powder that has a less finicky pressure range, try 2400. While you can reduce it more than H110/W296 and not get into too much trouble, it certainly will not perform as well as it can at the top ranges of it's pressure either.

Powders just seem to work much, much better when they are at their respective optimum pressure.

At 22grs, how much more could you get in a case if you wanted to? Not that you should, just if you could and still seat a bullet? Not enough to get the firearm to test pressure, and certainly not with that light of a bullet.

Personally, I would load 6 of 3 weights. 21gr, 21.5gr and 22.0gr, seat the bullet in the crimp groove or cannelure and crimp the snot out of it, shoot them real slow and listen for a squib and go from there. Got a chronograph? If not, get one. It will tell you a lot about being close to a dangerous threshold. Wide ES and SD numbers are an indication that something isn't right with the load.

Have fun, be safe! ;)
Click to expand...

I think siding with the powder manufacture is a wiser decision because they make the stuff that goes "boom" and therefore a greater liability. I plinked with 38 specials and thought about starting there. I decided that wasn't the round I was going to use for home defense (HD) and I didn't want to waste any money or range time there. I do know that a chronograph measures bullet velocity but what is the definition for the ES and SD numbers?
 
I think you should also consider Alliant's new powder-POWER PRO™ 300-MP (MAGNUM PISTOL) for your magnum loads-this powder was made for magnum loads.
 
I like H110/W296 and use it in several calibers. I don't load 125gr bullets in the 357M because they can cause increased throat erosion. Back to the issue - the Python is know to cause higher than normal pressure due to tight barrels. This also contributes to their very fine accuracy. I believe Hornady used the Python because it would result in the most conservative loads. I don't know what kind of 10" barrel Hodgdon - probably a pressure barrel.
 
As mentioned it can be very confusing.

If you want more to get you mixed up just look at several different releases of the same data over the years. Max loads have dropped dramatically over the last several decades. This occurred after we learned how to measure the entire pressure curve during the firing cycle instead of just recording the peak pressure with a crushed copper pellet.

H110 is a personal favorite of mine for full power jacketed projectile loads in the 357 Magnum and the 41 Magnum. It is a GREAT powder for these cartridges in the Desert Eagle pistols.

The 125 grain JHP in the 357 Magnum has accounted for many hunderds (perhaps thousands) of hours of range time. I can not even predict how many thousands of these I have loaded since the seventies.

ALWAYS use Magnum primers with H110 and make sure you have a good roll crimp. H110 is most efficient as it approaches MAX pressures. It is also most consistent at MAX pressure. I have found H110 to be exceptionally accurate at MAX loads. At low pressure it is very erratic and this is where the do not reduce warnings come from.

My standing recipe has been 21.6 grains of H110 over a Magnum primer (usually CCI550). The bulk of my loads have been using the Winchester projectile. I probably have 1500 of those cartridges sitting in the other room right now. I have 3000 of the IMI 125 JHPs waiting for my next loading session. I have also used the Speer, Hornady and Sierra projectiles as well.

Two notes about shooting H110 out of revolvers.

First it does not really go BANG. H110 makes more of a KAAAABOOOM. It is deeper, throatier and longer than most BANGs.

Second the shorter the barrel the bigger the muzzle flash. H110, like most powders for hand loaders, does not contain flash suppressant. This makes it a real attention getter out of a 2 1/2" model 19. The orange fireball lights up the indoor range.

The shooters to your immediate left and right will swear you are shooting a 44 Magnum.

This load chronographs at 1315 fps out of my 3" model 66, 1600 fps from my 8" Python and 2196 fps from my 20" 1892 lever action.
 
I started reloading again after 40 years. (I let work get in the way.) I started out with 38's and Bullseye powder. Purchased 2400 for my 357 loads. I feel these are two very good powders to work with.
 
I have loaded those exact same bullets with the exact same powder in remington cases. I used the Hornady data because it was the more conservative of the two, and I did not have any issues. I did happen to shoot them out of my fathers Colt Python though.
 
Reloading is a great hobby. Almost as much fun as shooting. That being said, reloading data changes constantly with each reloading manual release and recommended max loads drop with each new publication. I don't believe that any published loads past or present approach a level that will "KABOOM" your handgun. That being said, to err on the side of caution is the safe road. I do not shoot many max loads anymore, preferring instead to enjoy plinking with mild targetr loads. However,I almost always run a few max's through whenever I am at the range. Over a 125 gr. JHP, I prefer 17.3 grains of 2400. I get around 1350fps and decent groups.
 
Also, the one variable you didn't mention is the brass specified in either of those recipies or your reloads. Brass cases vary in capacity which also can affect pressure.
 
gsparesa said:
I think siding with the powder manufacture is a wiser decision because they make the stuff that goes "boom" and therefore a greater liability. I plinked with 38 specials and thought about starting there. I decided that wasn't the round I was going to use for home defense (HD) and I didn't want to waste any money or range time there. I do know that a chronograph measures bullet velocity but what is the definition for the ES and SD numbers?
Click to expand...

ES= Extreme Spread
SD= Standard Deviation

The one is a "minimum" and "maximum" relationship. Your rounds are going to be different velocities no matter what you shoot them out of. The smaller the ES the better. That means that you are going to have more consistent ammo.

Standard Deviation is how far a round is off of a "mean" for all the rounds shot, kinda. So, your average for 10 rounds is 1500fps and the next round is 1495fps and the twelfth is 1510fps the standard deviation would be: 7.63fps. And anything under 10 is considered wonderful. The ammo may or may not be accurate, this is not a measurement of that, just consistency.

You notice that I said in my previous post that I start off with the powder manufacturer's data. I may end up somewhere else entirely after that first session but I will know why I am going there.

i.e., pressure signs, velocity too high, velocity too low, inconsistent velocity, poor accuracy, leading, or whatever.

Like I said before, unless something else is drastically wrong, you are not going to blow up a gun with H110/W296 if it was meant to shoot the caliber you are loading for, especially a Smith. Your revolver is one of the strongest 357Magnums made. It's brother, the M28,M27, are some of the strongest ever made as they are 6 shot. More metal...........


As for shooting 38spl in your firearm, um, you want to do that UNLESS you are so good with the magnum that you can keep all of your shots in a playing card @ 25 yards. Personally, I would rather use the shorter cases, load them to +P 38spl levels and have a bunch of moon clips filled with them. Of course, I'm not going to have them stoked with a light bullet like you have! And they for sure won't be jacketed! ;)

These ought to do the trick nicely though! ;)
158grPinLoads1.jpg
 
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:rolleyes: Welcome to the world of reloading and the data that comes with it.
 
My reloading brass (R-P) will come from my spent factory Remington ammunition. I have 500 cases of the R-P brass. The case in the left side of the picture is an example. All those cases were from factory loads. I'm not concerned at this moment about 125gr bullets and "throat erosion". I just have not read any research that specifically attributes this phenomenon to lighter bullets. I am however, concerned about pressure, heat and flame. I don't want a heavier dose of the notorious flame cutting action to rapidly erode my frame.
FlatPimer_1.jpg

I have seen primer flattening happen with factory loads. If there is no gas leak around the primer then I guess I'm still good. I am concerned about giving the H110 powder sufficient time to burn in the cylinder before entering the barrel. The crimp is going to be my challenge. Colt saa suggested that I use a "good roll crimp". I will be using the Lee 4 piece die set. It is suppose to have a "factory crimp". Will the Lee crimp die give me a "roll crimp"? I'm guessing I need to crimp the case well into the cantilever without adding any distortions. Anyone have a pic with a "Good Roll Crimp"?

The M27 might be the brother to my M627-5 but it's probably a lot stronger. The M27 is tough carbon steel as oppose to the softer stainless steel on my 627-5. The M27 only holds 6 rounds, my 627-5 hold 8 rounds. Where did all the real-estate for the extra 2 round go too? Less meat between the cylinder bores has to equate to a weaker cylinder.
 
The Lee FCD is the fourth die in the set. It will give the appropriate crimp for the standard guns of a calliber. In other words roll for 'normally' revover rounds and taper for 'normally' auto rounds.
And that's cannalure(sp) btw. If you want a good example of the proper roll crimp, look at one of your factory rounds.

My point about the brass was that the recipies in either manual also specify brass. If you're using different brass, that can affect the pressure.

In any case it's good to check the data from a number of sources. A couple of good manuals, the vendors data. But you're gonna find variences the more you reload. Start sensible and work up as others have said.

Folks have been using H110 for a while. It just might be better for you to start with a more forgiving powder. 2400 works just fine an is easier to work with.
Not to be discouraging, but it might just be better to leave the H110 on the shelf for a bit.

Forgot to say welcome to the forum.
 
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Skip Sackett said:
ES= Extreme Spread
SD= Standard Deviation

The one is a "minimum" and "maximum" relationship. Your rounds are going to be different velocities no matter what you shoot them out of. The smaller the ES the better. That means that you are going to have more consistent ammo.

Standard Deviation is how far a round is off of a "mean" for all the rounds shot, kinda. So, your average for 10 rounds is 1500fps and the next round is 1495fps and the twelfth is 1510fps the standard deviation would be: 7.63fps. And anything under 10 is considered wonderful. The ammo may or may not be accurate, this is not a measurement of that, just consistency.

You notice that I said in my previous post that I start off with the powder manufacturer's data. I may end up somewhere else entirely after that first session but I will know why I am going there.

i.e., pressure signs, velocity too high, velocity too low, inconsistent velocity, poor accuracy, leading, or whatever.

Like I said before, unless something else is drastically wrong, you are not going to blow up a gun with H110/W296 if it was meant to shoot the caliber you are loading for, especially a Smith. Your revolver is one of the strongest 357Magnums made. It's brother, the M28,M27, are some of the strongest ever made as they are 6 shot. More metal...........


As for shooting 38spl in your firearm, um, you want to do that UNLESS you are so good with the magnum that you can keep all of your shots in a playing card @ 25 yards. Personally, I would rather use the shorter cases, load them to +P 38spl levels and have a bunch of moon clips filled with them. Of course, I'm not going to have them stoked with a light bullet like you have! And they for sure won't be jacketed! ;)

These ought to do the trick nicely though! ;)
158grPinLoads1.jpg
Click to expand...

What are those bullets and what are your loads? That looks mean.
 
You're getting a lot of good advice, especially Skip's post. It's important to research a lot of available data before arriving at a game plan. Start mild and work up as you get comfortable - pay attention to any indications such as flat primers, hard-to extract cases, rounds that "sound" odd, etc. You will notice that not all sources agree on what should be the same data . :)
 
Skips ammo above shows a good example of a firm roll crimp! Its also a good example of why I don't think that I need hollow point ammo!

rat
 
One reason I generally reference at least three published sources when working up a new load. Seldom do any of the manuals agree exactly on powder charges and the velocities they produce. (other than the Lee manual, which just copies from other manuals) Any published load SHOULD be safe to fire in any modern firearm. That's why those that publish manuals go to such lengths to develop and test their published loads. For me, I reference as many sources as possible and then throw out those that are excessively high or excessively low as compared to others. I'll start at an average starting load and work my way up from there and see what my firearm prefers. Hornady generally is on the conservative side and because they make bullets I believe are going for accuracy. Hodgdon and Lyman are generally on the hot side for the calibers I reload for and I believe they are going for max velocity. Because of it's tight throats, I cannot go much above Hodgdon starting loads in my .460. These loads are middle of the road in the Hornady manual. If I had only referenced the Hodgdon data I'd still be drivin' empties out with a dowel.
 
Skip Sackett said:
I will tell you this, there is NO WAY POSSIBLE that H110/W296 is going to blow up your gun, NO WAY!
Click to expand...

I don't believe that. If you stick a bullet due to lead fowling or a bullet lodges in the barrel and you fire another the gun will blow up, even with minimum .38 spl load.
 
I found an old thread on the Ruger forum that talked about the dilemma that I'm experiencing. The thread has entries from a retired gunsmith who goes by the name "lowegan". "lowegan" stated that there are two standards. One based on the older SAAMI 46K CUP (41,500 psi) standard and one based on the newer 1995 SAAMI 35,000 psi standard.

Read the old thread, " Hornady 7th Edition 357 Magnum Loads for H110", here.

"lowegan" suggested that the loading pressure data based on the CUP, like Hodgdon, is based on the older SAAMI standard. The new standard was adopted because some firearms could not handle the higher pressures. One thing I got from reading the old thread was to use the data published by the bullet manufactures, which is new data and probably better for my 627-5.

I visited the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactures Institute's (SAAMI) WEB site. I found that both Hornady and Hodgdon are members. How ironic when I found that SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:

Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality
Coordinating technical data
Promoting safe and responsible firearms use

Good job SAAMI!

I'm ready to reload. I completed my first dummy round with a full crimp. I used Lee factory crimp with one full CW turn. What do you-all think? Anyone use QuickLOAD?

Full_Crimp_2.jpg
 
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