Hollow Point Expansion Question:

[dwever]

As I'm reading comments and articles, it appears that there is a real question whether my carry ammo, Federal Premium JHP .357 130 Grain Personal Protection ammo would really expand coming out my shortish 2 5/8" barrel (2.625" on a Performance Center 627 UDR)? With that barrel and that ammo, will the big load .357 just over penetrate and not expand?

On the other hand, I'm reading user reviews that the 130 Grain Winchester .38 +P JHP Defense load will fully expand out of some barrels even shorter than mine (while giving up almost 250 ft. lbs. in energy to the .357 [247 compared to 410 of course with reductions for the shorter barrel])? Physically, the Winchester does have a larger cavity and serrated hollow point:

Both pictured here: Foreground Right .357 and .38+P Self Defense Loads photo - Doug Wever photos at pbase.com

What can you advise please?

 

[Dragon88]

Even the Winchester PDX load may not be up to snuff. It's quite popular on the market right now, but here are videos of it failing completely in ballistic gelatin. Twice:

Winchester PDX1 Bonded .38 Special +P SIM-TEST w/Denim - YouTube
Winchester PDX1 Bonded .38 Special +P *** RETEST *** - YouTube

If you are concerned about expansion, you might look at Gold Dot. It is an excellent bullet with a good track record, and Speer puts together some great loadings. Most notably the Short Barrel loads. I'm in the process of changing over some of my carry ammo to it.

 

[dwever]

Dragon88

The guy in the video tested with a sub 2" barrel, wouldn't that contribute to the problem of lack of expansion?

I'll look into the loads you are suggesting.

thanks!

 

[mkk41]

I've never put much stock in ballistic gel expansion tests/results. I always felt they were done more for the art/sales dept via pics in gun mags. Shots are always fired into them at near perfectly perpendicular angles , and the gel is of perfectly consistant density thru-out. Real living critters , two and four legged , are not. First ya have a layer of hide , or layers of clothing , all which vary in toughness. Then ya got varying density layers of muscle & fat , cartlidge , sinew , bones , organs. Modern bullets need a certain level of resistance to expand. A bullet hitting a 250lb strong man in the thigh , smashing the femur will look quite a bit different than one hitting a 125lb malnourished crackhead 'skinny' in the boiler room , or center mass. And not always 'square on'.

 

[OKFC05]

I carry the Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots in .38 and 9mm, and have shot some critters with them. They expand just fine in coyotes, coons, possums....

 

[Maximumbob54]

Is this another case for Hornady Critical Defense?

 

[jlanecole]

It's probably another case for Buffalo Bore's .38 Special +P LSWCHP!

Actually, pick an expanding load from a major manufacturer that you shoot well, then shoot it often, so you can place your shots where they need to go.

 

[Dragon88]

Dragon88

The guy in the video tested with a sub 2" barrel, wouldn't that contribute to the problem of lack of expansion?

I'll look into the loads you are suggesting.

thanks!

You will only get about 50fps more velocity out of your barrel. Did you see how completely the PDX bullet failed in those videos? If you think 50fps will turn it into a perfect mushroom, that's your call. Personally I'm moving away from PDX after seeing too many tests with poor results.

 

[dwever]

Well said.

Moving away to what? Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots .38+P?

His possible explanation in the video was the denim, and that possibly the bullet fell below the minimum velocity necessary to expand. That takes me back to my .357, which allowing for a reduced 70fps for my 2 5/8" barrel (from 1,300 fps), still has it moving at 1,230 fps. Can I count on that big load expanding?

 

[Dragon88]

There are a few good options, but yeah, Gold Dots. I've always been a fan of that bullet and I'm moving back to it for my carry guns.

Also I should say that I think the PDX bullet is still good in some calibers. It's a very tough bullet and I bet it does great against barriers, but the bonded jacket seems to resist expansion a little too much at lower velocities. I don't carry a 6" 357 or a 10" test barrel for CCW so I want to pick something that will work reliably at real-world velocities.

 

[off road]

I formerly worked for the medical examiner of a large populous southwest county, and later in my career taught human anatomy. We saw lots of action!

For what it's worth, in my snubs, my experience compels me to carry Glaser Safety Slugs (Silver) most of the time. If I feel the situation might require medium barrier penetration, then I will load Hornady Critical Defense. .38+P is good/.357 is better. (The .357 CD load is a genuine 'shock and awe' load, even when fired from a short barrel!)

I fully trust Glasers! This isn't a bone crusher...it is designed to create a massive wound and the large number of projectiles and deep penetration of Silvers, will greatly multiply your chances of hitting major blood vessels even in a peripheral shot. Instant blood pressure loss = a quick stop!

 

[Badkarma 1]

My own choices for a snubby .357 are either full power 110gr. JHPs (especially for the smaller J, and K frame revolvers as they recoil less), and 125gr. Full power JHPs in the bigger L and N frames, since recoil isn't that much of a problem (although the report is LOUD!!).
These loads have been around for a long time and are proven on the street. And there's nothing wrong with the .38 +P LHP either! Dale

 

[ContinentalOp]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that you should expect the rounds you use for self-defense to fail. I'm not saying you should just pick any old round off the bargain shelf. What I'm saying is that by not counting on the bullet to perform flawlessly it forces you to concentrate on the things you can control, like getting accurate hits quickly.

I tend towards rounds that have been proven performers in actual shootings rather than the latest gel testing protocol. But I also make sure that I can get quick, accurate hits with those rounds before I carry them.

I carry Speer .38 Special +P 135gr SB-GDHP in my 642 not only because it's established a good track record, but because I can shoot it well. I've also carried Federal 125gr Nyclads for the same reasons. I carry Buffalo Bore .38 Special standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP in my 65. I can handle the +P version, but with the non-+P version I was able to shoot with faster follow-up shots. Getting that balance of speed and accuracy was more important than raw power or higher likelihood of expansion.

 

[chief38]

I believe it was Erik that always stated (not the exact quote, but close enough):

#1) good shot placement & adequate penetration is King
#2) expansion is a bonus

The bullets keep getting better as time goes on, and reliable expansion would be nice, but if the shot is put into the right area and penetrates deep enough, I doubt that 1/8" larger or smaller would make a whole lot of difference. There are plenty of people that have died from the old .38 Special 158 grain RNL round that was always known as a poor or non expanding bullet but WAS known for being a good penetrating bullet.

Probably the best well known and reliable expanding bullet out of a short barrel .38 is the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot. I have some and have tested them, and from what I have seen, they expand every time. That said, I carry the Buffalo Bore 158 grain (Heavy) +P LSWCHP in my 2" M60-7. More than likely it will expand, but not as well as the Gold Dot. I just prefer the 158 grain weight to the 135 and I also like that the BB bullet penetrates to about 14" and the Gold Dot to less than 12". The BB round also leaves the barrel of my 2" gun at 1040 fps while the GD does 860 fps. The BB exhibits much greater energy and shocking (stopping) power, and so that is my defense round in that particular gun. My second choice would be the GD.

Chief38

 

[bassoneer]

I did quite a bit of ammo testing in water jugs a couple of years ago and tested all of this ammo (Hornady Critical Defense, Winchester PDX1, Speer Gold Dot, Golden Sabers, Federal, Buffalo Bore, etc., etc).

I think there are two issues here...first we have bullet speed, and that's probably why the question about barrel length - is the barrel going to get the bullet fast enough to expand? I found the answer to generally be yes, as long as it is +P. I had some non-+P out of a 2" barrel that did not expand, but it was a very limited test with Hornady (not Critical Defense for this round). I think I tested it from a 4" barrel and it did expand, but not from the 2" gun. Not to say all standard .38's wouldn't expand - I have heard that the Nyclads and Critical Defense rounds in standard pressure do fine, but have not tested those. Certainly, firing a .357 Magnum out of a 2" barrel...I can't imagine that not being fast enough to expand.

The other question is firing through material like denim. That's what some of the photos posted above were depicting. I had the same thing happen when testing some .45 ACP PDX1 - our test rig consisted of (8) 1-gallon water jugs lined up in a row on top of a stand/fixture. When we put several layers of denim in front, the .45 ACP round went through all 8 jugs and we never recovered it (because it got plugged and never expanded). We repeated the test and got the same result. However, without the denim, it expanded beautifully (and was the nastiest looking round I've ever seen). Of course, we tried this with the +P Critical Defense round and it expanded every time (no surprise).

So, if your bullet goes too slow OR it goes through clothing, both of those conditions could cause the round to fail to expand. Not sure I said anything new...probably everybody knew that information, but it was fun testing the ammo. There was not a clear winner and I would feel good with several different rounds (and actually, each gun seemed to like different stuff). But most of my guns have Speer of one type or another.

Best of luck, B

 

[photoman]

Moving away to what? Speer Short Barrel Gold Dots .38+P?

Short answer: yes.

The Gold Dot bullet design is one of the best (probably second only to the Barnes X bullet).

In regards to the gel test... I'm more interested in what's happening on the street. The NYPD has been very satisfied with the actual results of the 135gr .38 Special Gold Dot load. I would use that one or the 125gr Gold Dot .357 Magnum load, depending on your recoil tolerance.

 

[Lee Jones]

+1 ContinentalOps/Murphey is always there

ContinentalOps is right. No matter how ammo tests you cannot count on the test results in the real world. There are a few "truths" you can count on. And I am there are sure more besides these I am offering up.

1. The best gunfight/violent encounter is the one you do not get into.
Practice safe habits, avoid the darkness, avoid bad neighborhoods,
avoid convenience stores. Stress this on your family, and do not let
being armed make you stupid.
2. First up is best dressed. No gun is big enough, no ammo is good
enough to make up for being shot before you get a shot off. If you feel
uneasy, get your gun in your hand.
3. Practice, practice, practice. Study/buy quality books on self defense.
Take a good course, especially if you are new to firearms.
Nothing beats burning powder to build skills. 50 rounds a year won't
cut it.
4. This is expensive. Start reloading, share expenses with a friend.
Get a 22, it will build your skill. I am a handgunner today because of
a quality Daisy BB pistol I recieved around age 12 for Christmas. I
out shoot most folks shooting their pistols.
5. Join the NRA. Support pro-gun causes and canidates.

Lee Jones


Have your musket clean as a whistle, hatchet scoured, sixty rounds powder and ball, and be ready to march at a minute's warning.
April 19,1775

 

[dwever]

Short answer: yes.

The Gold Dot bullet design is one of the best (probably second only to the Barnes X bullet).

In regards to the gel test... I'm more interested in what's happening on the street. The NYPD has been very satisfied with the actual results of the 135gr .38 Special Gold Dot load. I would use that one or the 125gr Gold Dot .357 Magnum load, depending on your recoil tolerance.

After trying different .38+P and .357 self-defense ammo, I bought a box of the Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 over the shelf Monday for $30. VERY happy with them. So I'm ordering more, much more, for $22.99 a box from Midway.

As much as I loved the Federal Premium .357 Personal Protection, I was worried about expansion, over penetration, and recoil was exacerbated by the short grips on my N Frame UDR (PC 627). The +P's really didn't have the power I was looking for. The Speer .357 has very manageable recoil, the right balance of power, accuracy, and more confidence of expansion.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[photoman]

After trying different .38+P and .357 self-defense ammo, I bought a box of the Gold Dot Short Barrel .357 over the shelf Monday for $30. VERY happy with them. So I'm ordering more, much more, for $22.99 a box from Midway.

That'll be a fine choice. Back when I carried a 3" Model 65, I used 125gr Gold Dot magnums.

 

[Mule88]

Expansion should never take place of shot placement, shot placement is King, if your bullet happens to expand then that is just icing on the cake.