Holo plus magnifier: optic advice

[Pasifikawv]

I started with a Bushnell MP 2x optic. Seemed to work for me for leisure shooting. The 2x power helps as the rifle shoots much father than I can see. Then came time to qualify to use my rifles as a patrol rifle (never/not yet used it as such, but the qualification and option to do so is a feather in the cap.) The Dept of Crim Justice Srvcs requires that all qualify with irons. Anyone using an optic had to run the course again and qualify with an optic.

The Bushnell does not work well with BUIS. It has a built-in iron on top of the optic, but they aren't any better than point-n-shoot. Has zero accuracy at any distance greater than across the room - for which point-n-shoot is likely better anyway. The cheesey built-in irons are insufficient for the longer qualification distances.

With the Bushnell, there isn't room behind the optic for the rear sight. Placing in front of the Bushnell makes the distance between the rear and front sight very short. To do so, I had to move the Bushnell back significantly and it now gets in the way of the charging handle. Plus, the BUIS are magnified 2x when flipped up in front of the Bushnell. I made it thru qualifications, but it isn't an ideal set up.

Magnification is a huge plus for longer distance accuracy but a reflex sight is better for the shorter distances. I would like to try a holo sight with a flip to side magnifier for the best of both worlds, but I don't want to spend nearly $1,200 on an EOTech holo with a 3x magnifier. I have looked at other, cheaper alternatives, but not sure which reflex/reddot/holo work well with which magnifiers or which may be affordable but still offer some level of quality.

Does anyone have a recommendation of a lesser, affordable brand(s) of holo plus magnifier that works together well, but not EOTech extreme battle-tested quality and high price? Something more-or-less decent, but not top-o-the-line. Other consideration is optic(s) size and mount placement to allow room for flip up BUIS.

I don't want to spend tons of money trying different holos and magnifiers only to end up spending as much on trial and error as just buying the EOTech. Any feedback, personal experience, cautions, recommendations, etc greatly appreciated.

Life in rural America: can't just slip down the block to a huge sporting good store to see (or test) products first hand.

FYI: 45 degree BUIS may be an option, but it will require re-training to develop consistency and muscle memory for a shooting form I have no experience with. I have never tried shooting a rifle slanted sideways with 45 degree BUIS and would need to learn to do so effectively. It would be problematic to try to run the full quals at all distances using a shooting form outside my current comfort zone - unless I should train to do so.

 

[cyphertext]

Instead of a red dot with a magnifier, I would go with something like this on a quick disconnect mount. Works like a red dot at low power, and provides for magnification. Doesn't solve your iron sight issue, but the quick disconnect mount should let you remove and re-install without losing zero (in theory). I'm not a LEO, so I can't speak to using these lower priced optics on a patrol rifle...

Bushnell - 1-4x 24mm Throw Down PCL

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

For a service rifle, forget about the magnifier. No need for a flopping obstruction of your view of the bad guys.

Get an Aimpoint or EOTech. With a Midway discount, you can get an Aimpoint Pro deliverd for just under $400. If that's too much coin, then maybe a Vortex. If you are convinced you want a magnifier, keep an eye on PrImary Arms. They regularly run sales and give away a free magnifier with the purchase of an EOTech. When you figure out that the magnifier isn't practical for a service rifle, you can toss it in the junk box without regret. If you buy something to save a couple bucks I think you'll end up wishing you got an Aimpoint or EOTech for a service rifle.

 

[JaPes]

I don't want to spend tons of money trying different holos and magnifiers only to end up spending as much on trial and error as just buying the EOTech. Any feedback, personal experience, cautions, recommendations, etc greatly appreciated.

You rang?

Hi. My name is John. I'm a recovering AR-15 junkie. I'm the guy that's tried different "budget" optics, including the Bushnell T-Dot you just outgrew. I've also tried every "budget" part and had to learn the hard way.

If you don't want to spend tons of money trying different holographic sights and magnifiers, you only have one choice: EoTech + EoTech 3X Magnifier. If you want the value EoTech, get the tried and true EoTech 512 A65. It runs on two AA batteries. If you want smaller, go with the XPS line.

If you want a rugged LED dot, small form factor, run time measured in years, get the Aimpoint Micro.

If you can't stomach the price of either, the absolute best budget red dot is the Primary Arms micro dot.

Disclaimer: I run an EoTech 512 A65 on my Sport. I run a Primary Arms micro dot on my home built Franken-AR.

 

[Pasifikawv]

Thanks for the feedback and considerations. Much appreciated!

My bro who is a FLEO has an EOTech without a magnifier on his M&P. It is a very nice optic. Great for distances of 50 meters and under and shooting with both eyes open. My less expensive Bushnell has also served me well for weekend runnin'-n-gunnin' for fun.

My reason for wanting a magnifier should I go with a 1x reflex/holo/reddot is that the rifle is capable of precision shots at distances of 100 meters or more, but beyond 50 exceeds the limits of my vision to acquire such precision without magnification. A magnifier with quick release/mount is another option.

The 1x holo is much more comfortable for closer range shots on target with both eyes open. Using my bro's rifle with the EOTech holo was a much nicer experience for shooting under 50 meters. I was also more proficient with the reflex/holo in transitioning from target to target vs my tube-style Bushnell which blocked some lateral vision even with both eyes open.

While qualified for patrol rifle, I have never been assigned to a duty site that needs it and likely never will. It is used primarily for range fun rather than duty. But to keep up with the qualification, the rifle needs a set up appropriate to meet DCJS requirements - at least at time of qual and/or if used for duty.

Gee.... maybe I just need two ARs: One set up however I like for range fun and one for duty set up for DCJS regs! And here I was worried about fallout from the Mrs. regarding optic price....

 

[Tbat]

I have a Vortex magnifier behind an Eotech on both a S&W MP 15 and a MP 10. The Vortex magnifier is half the price of the Eotech magnifer but the mount is not quite as nice, but you can sill pick up a different mount and be well under the price of the Eotech magnifier.

I am not much on buying things if I can't handle it first. A local gunshop happened to have both the latest models of eotech and the vortex magnifers. At least for me, the Vortex seemed like it had a little more eye relief and better field of view, but I definitely preferred the Eotech's mount, i.e., no buttons to push to flip it over and easier to place so that the magnifier would flip to the right out of the way.

I have Troy folding sights on my MP15 ORC, and Yankee Hill folding sights on my MP10. Either brand folds out of the way enough to allow you to place the magnifier far enough back on the rail to give you the proper eye relief and good sight picture.

Would the vortex hold up to duty use? I think so, based on my informal experience of two samples. So, take that as you may. I am not law enforcement, military, or any other high speed type operator, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but I don't put subpar items on my rifles more than once, lol. And if I do, they won't stay on them long. Anyways, I think it would be up to your own evaluation if you wanted to trust anything other on a duty weapon.

 

[Tbat]

To me if you are a right handed shooter, I would prefer the magnifier flip to the right so that I can still have an unobstructed field of view with my left eye when using the red dot without the magnifier in place, if you leave both eyes open when using the red dot alone. This puts the Vortex magnifier mount button to the front instead of the rear and may not give you adequate room to manipulate it or just make it kind of awkward. That's why I perfer the Eotech magnifer's mount as no button pushing required to flip it and it is easy to reverse to flip either right or left.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If you're thinking about a second rifle for precision paper punching at distance and want to keep with the double duty recreation/service theme, get a Rem 700P and slap a 10x scope on it.

 

[Fishinfool]

Another alternative is a set up like shown below on one of my Bushmasters - a 2x7 scope, with a holographic sight mounted on top for close range speed. It will not work with traditional iron sights, but sights mounted at 45 degrees to the right will. Covers all the bases.

Our duty m-4's were used with various Eo Tech's without magnifiers. Worked well. The point is not target accuracy at longer ranges with these rigs, but enough precision for center mass hits, which they will do.

Eo Tech and Aimpoint are the gold standard, but I have to say, the couple Burris Fastfire's I have mounted on rifles and handguns have held up well.

Larry

 

[Neumann]

A quick-disconnect mount will vary about 2 MOA when replaced. That's probably good enough for CQC, but I wouldn't use it in a hostage situation from the next roof top.

BUIS are always a good idea. Optical sights are easily knocked out of commission, and batteries die at inopportune times. LaRue makes tipping mounts that get optics out of the way while retaining their zero. AFIK, the LaRue mounts are 30mm only, but in different heights. The medium height gives me lower 1/3rd collateral position for the iron sights, and just enough room for the folding rear BUIS to get out of the way.

I have a 3x Aimpoint magnifier that works with both an Aimpoint PRO and EOTech EXPS2 holographic sight (short with lateral battery chambers). The scope is on a LaRue tipping mount (and can also be removed). Scopes don't change the POI. That's in the sight itself.

 

[Rastoff]

I have an EOTech 556 on one gun and a Hi-Lux CMR 1-4x24 on another. I'm really on the fence as to which style I like better.

On the one hand, the CMR needs no batteries and is nicer for those 200 yard shots because of the 4x option. On the other hand, the EOTech is really nice for quick acquisition and super easy to use. I like the way HWS or Red Dot sights work. They require less thought and have infinite eye relief.

I'm going to take my EOTech to a rifle class. I can see a man sized target at 200 yards OK and I can hit it with the EOTech OK. No magnifier.

 

[ocinsomniac]

Very pleased with my EoTech 512 backed by a Primary Arms 6x magnifier with a flip to the side magnifier mount. Works almost like a low power scope. Without the magnifier, the EoTech will co-witness with my front sight. Very versatile midranged setup. Had them for 2 1/2 years and not a single problem.



MP15 w/ Eotech setup is in bottom of pic, MP15-22 on top

 

[CatSnipah]

I bought an EOTech from Primary Arms at one point that they were giving you a free 3x magnifier (with flip to side mount).

'Twas worth it. They run that type of deal several times each year.