Home Brew FBI Load Fail

[cstanmiller]

I shoot the Button nose WC turned backwards (45ACP) at target velocities in the military revolvers shoot. they punch perfect holes that can be scored from 25 yards. When asked what bullets I am shooting I answer Boat Tail Wadcutters.

 

[Rust E. Badge]

They may know what they are doing, however ensuring that the agents are proficient with their gun training, stress fire training and their overall capability is well above average from the run of the mill local PD officer will have more success than the perfect round of ammunition. Don't get me wrong about everyday PD Officers, I'm not trying to play down their importance in our communities. Rather I am trying to make the case that the FBI agents should be among the best trained shooters available, and that doesn't happen qualifying twice a year. And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it too.

Thanks but I don't smoke. I have trained with FBI agents, instructed FBI agents and completed the FBI Firearms Instructor course and I can testify to you that they are no better, and often less, trained in the use of deadly force than most street officers. Administrative priorities do not include much active deadly force or critical decision-making training. And you are correct that fight skills outweigh ammo or firearms selection.

 

[oink]

When I moved to FL I was required to take the comparative compliance course course offered by the Palm Beach County Police Academy. I think it was a 2 week course mainly just Florida Statutory Law but it included a firearms qualification administered by a couple of FBI agents.

On qualification day, when it was my turn at the line, the agent saw I was using speed loaders, which I'd been using for several years. He told me I couldn't use them. When I asked why not he said "what happens if you run out of speed loaders?" I replied "Then I'm *explicative* out of ammo! I qualified with bullets stuck in my mouth and wedged between my ammo belt. I qualified with no problem as I was a good shot at the time, but while thinking what a moron the agent was.

I'm certain there are many good FBI agents but my personal experiences have never caused me to assume they were top notch. My experience hasn't let me to naturally assume DEA agents were top grade either. I assume their selection process of the FBI and DEA normally eliminates those of lower natural intelligence but I'm not sure it does much more than that. The one guy I knew that left a local agency to go to the DEA was certainly an intelligent guy but he wouldn't win any awards for honesty or character in general.

I'm sure there are many fine Federal agents. My optimism for that has improved lately.

 

[TaxPhd]

They may know what they are doing, however ensuring that the agents are proficient with their gun training, stress fire training and their overall capability is well above average from the run of the mill local PD officer will have more success than the perfect round of ammunition. Don't get me wrong about everyday PD Officers, I'm not trying to play down their importance in our communities. Rather I am trying to make the case that the FBI agents should be among the best trained shooters available, and that doesn't happen qualifying twice a year. And you can put that in your pipe and smoke it too.

That would be a hard case to make.

When I was actively competing in USPSA, a B/C class competitor would outshoot virtually any FBI agent that was willing to show up and compete.

 

[jjfitch]

I never counted on any "handgun" bullet to reliably expand 100% of the time, nor did I ever expect any "handgun" bullet to pass thru a windshield and strike its intended target. It may, or may not. Far too many variables to make any statements about such things, especially with the lower velocity of handgun ammunition. If you obtain bullet expansion from a handgun in any and all conditions you are most fortunate and really should start buying lottery tickets. FYI, I never carry reloads for self defense use, only known high quality ammunition at above average speed. It must go bang when I pull the trigger. Bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my intended target.

Does the FBI do a good job of ballistic testing? Certainly they do. They have the funding for such endeavors where most other departments do not. They have the funding to not only test ammunition and such, but also to purchase what they feel is best for their agents at that time. Some departments are so ill funded that their officers may carry a certain firearm for over a decade even though better items are out there and available. On a department living on a shoe string budget money for firearms and ammunition is way down on the list of needed purchases, except for qualification shoots some of which may only be once a year. The days of obtaining ammunition from your department to practice with are pretty much over.

There were far more issues with the infamous Miami FBI shootout than firearms and ammunition. One really has to read the final reports on this incident to get a clear understanding of what went wrong. I drew my own conclusions from this event a long time ago and a big problem was simple communication. Letting others know what you are doing so they can assist if needed. And that is still a problem to this very day.

Rick H.

Miami shoot out!
Never take pistols to a rifle fight!
Armed engagement must be approached with overwhelming firepower and superior tactics!
And as mentioned maintain good communications with adjacent agencies.
These observations also apply to the LA Bank Robbery!

 

[chief38]

I do not reload my carry ammo however if you insist, try buying the bullets Federal HST uses (if available) as they do expand very well. Personally, I'd just get a few boxes of Factory ammo that you do like and call it a day. For shooting at the target range expansion is just not needed.

 

[ddixie884]

The Speer 158gr SWCHP has a larger deeper and much more fragile hollow point then the Hornady version it also has a crimping groove. I like it very much on 5.2gr Unique or 6gr of PP or N340.

 

[ddixie884]

I believe the original Winchester, which I think was the very first loading of that round. Did 890 FPS from 4 inch.

 

[USSR]

Cast using an alloy high in tin and low in antimony, a cast bullet will outperform a swaged bullet every time. Bullet in the middle and on the right came out of my 2.5" Model 19 snubbie at 940fps using my FBI Load. You can't ask for much more from a .38 Special +P load.

Don

 

[Eddie Southgate]

As long as the bullet does not tumble on the way to the target and hits where I aim , I would have no problem with it tumbling inside the target . A .358 bullet tumbling inside a body would be pretty destructive given enough velocity for reasonable penetration. If it's tumbling before it gets to the target that of course is a no go.

 

[Lance Boyle]

I never counted on any "handgun" bullet to reliably expand 100% of the time, nor did I ever expect any "handgun" bullet to pass thru a windshield and strike its intended target. It may, or may not. Far too many variables to make any statements about such things, especially with the lower velocity of handgun ammunition. If you obtain bullet expansion from a handgun in any and all conditions you are most fortunate and really should start buying lottery tickets. FYI, I never carry reloads for self defense use, only known high quality ammunition at above average speed. It must go bang when I pull the trigger. Bullet expansion is secondary to hitting my intended target.

Does the FBI do a good job of ballistic testing? Certainly they do. They have the funding for such endeavors where most other departments do not. They have the funding to not only test ammunition and such, but also to purchase what they feel is best for their agents at that time. Some departments are so ill funded that their officers may carry a certain firearm for over a decade even though better items are out there and available. On a department living on a shoe string budget money for firearms and ammunition is way down on the list of needed purchases, except for qualification shoots some of which may only be once a year. The days of obtaining ammunition from your department to practice with are pretty much over.

There were far more issues with the infamous Miami FBI shootout than firearms and ammunition. One really has to read the final reports on this incident to get a clear understanding of what went wrong. I drew my own conclusions from this event a long time ago and a big problem was simple communication. Letting others know what you are doing so they can assist if needed. And that is still a problem to this very day.

Rick H.

Speaking of shoestring budgets… it's a real factor for agencies and regular people.
-In my younger days I remember in the late 80's a local news story of one of the local town PDs issuing a new hire an N frame in .45 Colt. He carried it for several months BEFORE attending the local academy where he was to shoot it. It didn't work, he'd been carrying the old department gun with a busted hammer nose. The union made a stink about it.

- our agency had its issues procuring ammo. Often times it was the market not the budget, we couldn't get the ammo we had on contract. I went 2.5 years without qualifying. Our politician in charge didn't care as he legally wasn't required to have us shoot. We literally only had to qualify once to get certified and graduate the academy. Never mind that we always had previously qualified twice a year. Our sister agency were peace officers, not like us, police officers. State law legal distinction. They according to the law had to shoot at least once a year to carry.

Another time when ammo was moderately tight we got in the annual order and the percentage for our sister agency was picked up by them. They shot it all up in their spring training but not shoot their actual qualifying course which they intended to shoot in the fall. Come fall they call up our QM or Senior Firearms guy (they had their own firearms training team) and wanted their fall ammunition. Our guy laughed at them, you got it already in the Spring, what did you do with it? Oh,…we shot it all doing training drills, we wondered why we got so much ammo. Well because they were peace officers and were required to shoot their qualification course the Commissioner forced our side to give them our fall ammo instead of making them find some of their own budget money to buy more ammo. We got shafted…..again.