Home defense -- no shots fired

[Jeffersonwasright]

So, you order him down on the floor or you demand that he leave. While you're doing that, his buddy - who, unknown to you, entered first and has slipped into the next room - steps out and shoots you? Unless you actually witness the entry, I think there may be a big risk in not immediately shooting an intruder when you first see him.

 

[PALADIN85020]

All I can say is that I'm SO glad I live in Arizona rather than the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

I can have a gun or guns without registration. I can wear one openly or discreetly almost anywhere. My home is my castle. Anyone in it without my permission is subject to being shot with no second-guessing from the law.

I am a free man, a law-abiding man, and I do not fear the law for doing what's right. I really feel for those people who do in those states where they are not free. I wish the same freedoms I have for all in this country, but it's an uphill battle now to make it so. For those who simply cannot stomach their oppressive laws, Arizona will welcome you. Live free again. Tell 'em John sent you.

John

 

[SMSgt]

My inclination is to put him on the ground--peacefully or otherwise--and keep him there until the LEOS arrive rather than let him leave and make some outrageous claim against you that would never be believed outside of CA.

 

[Cal44]

All I can say is that I'm SO glad I live in Arizona rather than the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

I can have a gun or guns without registration. I can wear one openly or discreetly almost anywhere. My home is my castle. Anyone in it without my permission is subject to being shot with no second-guessing from the law.

I am a free man, a law-abiding man, and I do not fear the law for doing what's right. I really feel for those people who do in those states where they are not free. I wish the same freedoms I have for all in this country, but it's an uphill battle now to make it so. For those who simply cannot stomach their oppressive laws, Arizona will welcome you. Live free again. Tell 'em John sent you.

John

Actually I was born in Tucson and grew up in Phoenix.

My dad taught me to shoot at age 8 and took me to an NRA gun safety class at that age.

But I became a computer engineer and Silicon Valley is the center of the Universe in computers, so I spent my work career there.

My wife's family and most of our friends are still here in CA, and now we live in the Eastern part of the Sacramento metro.

If it were me, I'd probably move back to AZ and, in fact, still own a house there. But my wife won't consider it.

I'd never have these concerns if I lived in Arizona.

Dave

 

[cmort666]

1. I would report a break in.
2. I have zero desire to forcibly detain somebody in my home who doesn't belong there. I didn't want them there in the first place; why keep them around?
3. At least in Ohio, absent other factors (you're a prohibited person, etc.), there's no legal basis for police confiscating a gun that was not fired, because YOU report a crime.

 

[Stevens]

Suppose one is holding a burglar at gunpoint and he simply turns around and walks out the door? Shooting him in the back would seem to counter the "fear for your life etc, justification. What happens then?
Steve W

 

[venomballistics]

1. I would report a break in.
2. I have zero desire to forcibly detain somebody in my home who doesn't belong there. I didn't want them there in the first place; why keep them around?
3. At least in Ohio, absent other factors (you're a prohibited person, etc.), there's no legal basis for police confiscating a gun that was not fired, because YOU report a crime.

yup .. this is the approximate jist of it
yes .. report it.
the cops can't chase bad guys they don't know about and your insurance won't pay for the damage on your word alone.
they don't give windows and doors away.

to detain or not to detain ... that is a good question ...
It would be far more productive in the long run to detain the perp. Its the fast track to ending his life of crime .. or at least putting it on hold for a while.
However, this act tends to conflict with something in human nature. the perp is an imminent threat, and we'd much rather have that threat removed now, rather than 15 - 30 minutes later.
Sending the perp off to beat a retreat eliminates the presence of the threat in a matter of seconds, allowing your blood pressure to return to its normal in a more timely manor.

Confiscation of arms ...
With the constant weather changes at state, fed and local levels towards arms, its more a function of what the gov thinks is in fashion at the time or even what the responding officer thinks is policy. With no time to refer to the law, they take their best guess. Some get it, others don't.
They may be inclined to offer a gift card to a LGS so that you have ammo to use next time, or they may be inclined to load em all into a squad car tagged as evidence. Just depends on who you get responding and where you are

 

[Cal44]

Suppose one is holding a burglar at gunpoint and he simply turns around and walks out the door? Shooting him in the back would seem to counter the "fear for your life etc, justification. What happens then?
Steve W

And another issue with holding someone.

How do you know he isn't armed?

So you make him lie face down and put hands on his head.

And then he removes his hand an reaches into a pocket.

Do you shoot him then, perhaps in the back?

Or do you wait to see if he has a weapon before you shoot -- and risk getting shot yourself?

I'm not trained in checking, cuffing, and disarming a person, and don't have cuffs anyway.

I'd rather let him run away if he wants too.

Dave

 

[cmort666]

They may be inclined to offer a gift card to a LGS so that you have ammo to use next time, or they may be inclined to load em all into a squad car tagged as evidence. Just depends on who you get responding and where you are

But "evidence" of... WHAT???

That you own guns? Aside from other facts not in evidence, that's not a crime, nor evidence of any OTHER crime, allegedly committed by you OR the intruder.

If a home invader/burglar sees my firearm and flees with no shots fired, what possible "evidence" could my firearm(s) provide?

• My firearms don't have a "dash cam".
• Are the police going to "interrogate" my guns? They can't talk. They can't even provide a written statement.

The odds of guns being taken in such a circumstance, at least in Ohio, are pretty slim. I wouldn't live some place where the case was otherwise.

 

[MaximumLawman]

You catch a burglar in your house and don't arrest him and hold him for police but just tell him to leave? You'd have to have a screw loose in my opinion. He could be wanted for a million other things, he could be part of a serial burglary crew that's been hitting your neighborhood for months or he could have just pegged you as a witness that needs dealing with later or an easy mark for the next burglary when he comes back to steal your guns or the other nice stuff he saw in your house. Remember what happened to Gentle Uncle Ben when pre Spiderman Peter Parker passed on an opportunity to grab a holdup man.

 

[mc5aw]

Just to be clear, this is a hypothetical discussion. There was no break-in. (The five burglaries long ago happened, though)

But I figure the time to think things through is before something happens.

I'm considering checking out courses in legal aspects of self defense.

This response has taken the hypothetical scenario to a fork in the road. If you encounter a home intruder who has just entered your home without permission, technically you are not yet in a self defense situation, as you have not been threatened with bodily harm nor have you indicated that you felt threatened. If the intruder simply and peacefully exits upon your command, you're in less of a self defense situation. Thus, legal aspects of self defense are a moot point.

Coming upon an intruder in my home, I'd err on the side of safety and assume the uninvited guest is looking to perpetrate a violent crime upon myself and family, and LEO would be immediately summoned. Living in a Castle Doctrine state however, speaks for itself in terms of my initial response to the home invasion/break in.

 

[cmort666]

You catch a burglar in your house and don't arrest him and hold him for police but just tell him to leave? You'd have to have a screw loose in my opinion.

I'd have to have a screw loose to want to hang onto an intruder in my house if he's willing to leave.

There isn't one element of my job description which involves "enforcing the law" or "apprehending" anyone.

My "job", such as it is, is to protect MYSELF and anyone for whose safety I'm responsible, NOT "arresting" people. THAT is the job of the police, and I leave it to them.

I've never seen anybody who wanted me to "arrest" anyone who was willing to lift a finger to help me if it all went wrong.

 

[cmort666]

Coming upon an intruder in my home, I'd err on the side of safety and assume the uninvited guest is looking to perpetrate a violent crime upon myself and family, and LEO would be immediately summoned. Living in a Castle Doctrine state however, speaks for itself in terms of my initial response to the home invasion/break in.

If I find you in my home, you get ONE chance to leave. You'd be well advised to take it and be grateful for the opportunity. Do anything else, and that's prima facia evidence that you're not there either by accident or "merely" to steal.

Being in my place without my permission is a serious error in judgment. Disdaining a chance to leave in one piece is a much bigger one... possibly your last.

 

[mc5aw]

I'd have to have a screw loose to want to hang onto an intruder in my house if he's willing to leave.

There isn't one element of my job description which involves "enforcing the law" or "apprehending" anyone.

My "job", such as it is, is to protect MYSELF and anyone for whose safety I'm responsible, NOT "arresting" people. THAT is the job of the police, and I leave it to them.

I've never seen anybody who wanted me to "arrest" anyone who was willing to lift a finger to help me if it all went wrong.

+1

It's interesting to see differing opinions on our respective "jobs" and "responsibilities" in such situations. For a time some years ago (post Kitty Genovese), there was a prevailing sentiment that people should get involved anytime a crime was being perpetrated. I remember lots of discourse on the merits of citizens arrests. I understand the sentiment for promoting civic duties, etc., but I don't agree with it as it pertains to becoming a de facto LEO. My main focus in a hazardous situation is to keep myself and loved ones safe ... end of story. Until I am officially deputized or find a big "S" on my chest, I have no interest in taking on LEO job specs.

 

[venomballistics]

But "evidence" of... WHAT???

That you own guns? Aside from other facts not in evidence, that's not a crime, nor evidence of any OTHER crime, allegedly committed by you OR the intruder.

If a home invader/burglar sees my firearm and flees with no shots fired, what possible "evidence" could my firearm(s) provide?

• My firearms don't have a "dash cam".
• Are the police going to "interrogate" my guns? They can't talk. They can't even provide a written statement.

The odds of guns being taken in such a circumstance, at least in Ohio, are pretty slim. I wouldn't live some place where the case was otherwise.

Now ... we BOTH know that such confiscation would be dubious at the very least.
Understand however, that as the Charlie Sherrill types off officers grow old and retire, the ratio of good lawmen to boneheads will shift.
Already the squad car you see today may be driven by a fresh out of the academy kid who graduated from the new zero tolerance indoctrination oriented school system.
Think Di Fi with a badge assuming anyone with a gun for any reason is just plain bad and they are up to no good.

many departments from many areas set em straight ... others don't

 

[cmort666]

Now ... we BOTH know that such confiscation would be dubious at the very least.
Understand however, that as the Charlie Sherrill types off officers grow old and retire, the ratio of good lawmen to boneheads will shift.
Already the squad car you see today may be driven by a fresh out of the academy kid who graduated from the new zero tolerance indoctrination oriented school system.
Think Di Fi with a badge assuming anyone with a gun for any reason is just plain bad and they are up to no good.

many departments from many areas set em straight ... others don't

Literally ANYTHING is possible.

A lot fewer things are likely.

I simply can't prepare for EVERYTHING.

I CAN prepare for the likely.

In Ohio, preparing for a violent home invasion is a lot more reasonable than preparing to be unlawfully disarmed for calling the cops.

My best friend here is a lawyer. I'm prepared for any reasonably foreseeable untoward encounters with the law.

 

[Kanewpadle]

You catch a burglar in your house and don't arrest him and hold him for police but just tell him to leave? You'd have to have a screw loose in my opinion. He could be wanted for a million other things, he could be part of a serial burglary crew that's been hitting your neighborhood for months or he could have just pegged you as a witness that needs dealing with later or an easy mark for the next burglary when he comes back to steal your guns or the other nice stuff he saw in your house. Remember what happened to Gentle Uncle Ben when pre Spiderman Peter Parker passed on an opportunity to grab a holdup man.

Max, no disrespect but I ain't gonna play cop either. The intruder has two options and he better make up his mind in a hurry.

Yes he could be wanted. He could be on the most wanted list. Fine. I don't care. I want him out or stopped. Not delivered.

He could have a buddy close by. He could be amped on drugs. He could be a lot of things. But could isn't a chance I'm willing to take.

Besides, I can hear it now, my wife yelling at me. "WHY DON'T YOU SHOOT THAT ***!!!"

The trauma and the drama need not last any longer than necessary.

 

[cmort666]

Max, no disrespect but I ain't gonna play cop either. The intruder has two options and he better make up his mind in a hurry.

Remember, as a citizen you have no immunity, qualified or otherwise.

Here in Ohio, I have the castle doctrine on my side. That means I have the REBUTTABLE presumption of justification when in home or vehicle.

I haven't got the SLIGHTEST intention of CREATING a situation in which that presumption COULD be rebutted.

The potential downsides of attempting to forcibly detain a non-disabled intruder so VASTLY outweigh any potential benefits that you'd be a fool to hang onto him if you can at all avoid it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Remember, as a citizen you have no immunity, qualified or otherwise.

Here in Ohio, I have the castle doctrine on my side. That means I have the REBUTTABLE presumption of justification when in home or vehicle.

I haven't got the SLIGHTEST intention of CREATING a situation in which that presumption COULD be rebutted.

The potential downsides of attempting to forcibly detain a non-disabled intruder so VASTLY outweigh any potential benefits that you'd be a fool to hang onto him if you can at all avoid it.

Agreed. Revised Code of Washington (RCW) allows us the same right.

 

[gm272gs]

I think you should have robbed him and then let him go. He probably wouldn't have the cojones to tell anyone, or come back.

 

[CA Escapee]

Suppose one is holding a burglar at gunpoint and he simply turns around and walks out the door? Shooting him in the back would seem to counter the "fear for your life etc, justification. What happens then?
Steve W

If this happens in California you will go to jail.

A DA will look at the case step by step. It is illegal for the intruder to break into your house. If, at that point, you warned the intruder prior to their entry that you have a gun and they still attempt to enter, they are breaking the law, and you can try to stop them once they are in your home. (You were fearing for your life, weren't you.) Once they are inside your house they are a threat to you. It can be their word against yours, though.

If you yell at them to get out and they pick up your flat screen tv, turn to leave, then you shoot them, the DA will look at the situation that the threat to you ended when they turned to leave. (CA has ruled that you can't fear for your life when the burgler is walking away.) A bullet in the back only confirms they weren't a threat to you.

The DA will look at how the situation escalates. The situation can change back and forth in a split second depending on whether the homeowner or the intruder ratchets it up or down.

In any event don't plan on ever getting your gun back.

Bill

 

[CA Escapee]

I think you should have robbed him and then let him go. He probably wouldn't have the cojones to tell anyone, or come back.

Make him take all his clothes of, then turn him loose.

Bill

 

[Capt.Jim]

I would hold him/her at gunpoint till the police arrive!

If he turns his back to you and start running what would you do?

Empty your magazine to stop him running away?

If shooting him in the back is your solution, say hello to 25 to Life in a CA state prison cause you're a murderer.

For what? A broken door lock?

Seriously?

 

[snubbiefan]

Never just wound one....or back-shoot them. I guess that is what it boils down to. Don't pull the gun unless you have the guts to complete what needs to be done I suppose. As a kid, I watched a poor guy get beat almost to death. He made a serious mistake....pulled his gun but failed to pull the trigger and paid the price.

Darned-if-you-do....darned-if-you-don't.There is no simple solution to this problem ...unless there are no living witnesses and the evidence is in your favor.

 

[Neumann]

Make a report. Be factual, and describe the event. Don't elaborate or exaggerate. You can always remember the truth.

You can use deadly force, or the threat of deadly force to STOP a violent felony. If the attack stops, you can no longer shoot. You can't shoot someone who submits, or one who flees (the usual response).

If there is not an imminent threat, you could order the intruder to "freeze" or "get on the floor" (or something to that effect). Most will run, Some will comply, others will turn to attack. You are entitled to stop that attack (which is part of the felony). When cops order a man with a weapon to "freeze", they do so in expectation he will turn toward them with the weapon, with predictable results. Taking control of the situation is often verbal - verbal judo. Tell the perp what HE needs to do, not what you're going to do.

In "castle" states, someone who enters your occupied residence is presumed intent on committing a violent felony, whether he displays a weapon or not. Remember, five times as many people are killed with hands, fists or feet than with long guns (nearly 11%).

Keep that word "stop" in your mind. Don't think "kill" and never use the verb "kill" in your statement to the police. Using a firearm in self defense is likely to kill, but that's not why you do it.

Using a firearm in self defense results in shots fired in only 1% of the incidents, and the death or serious injury of the assailant one time in a thousand. You've all seen the videos where the gangsters run so fast they leave their shoes behind.

Writer Assad Mayoob advises you to call the police in any event. Crooks don't like being foiled, and may report you anonymously as "a man with a gun." In other documented incidents, they come back with friends for revenge. At very least, there's a chance the guy will be apprehended before he victimizes others (100 crimes = one arrest).

 

[Capt.Jim]

This may be in the wrong section, but here goes.

I have a question.

Suppose someone breaks into your home while you are there, and you confront him pointing a firearm at him, order him to leave, and he complies.

No shots fired.

No one hurt.

Perhaps the door or window broken, but that's it.

My question is:

Do you report the incident to the police?

I can't see much upside benefit to doing so.

And there is a potential downside.

Would the officer confiscate your gun?

There would be a report in the police database, and depending on wording, might make you look trigger happy or make you look like a gun nut.

Remember I live in California where perhaps a majority feel private individuals shouldn't even have guns.

My inclination is to make no report and just fix the door or window and consider the issue over.

Dave

I love some of those macho responses as "I have to call the police because there will be a body inside my house with 17 bullet holes"...

Really guys?

Read the question again please?

He is NOT asking how many times those of you will shoot the unarmed intruder.

The question is:

- There was an unsuccessful break in event at your residence...
- You confronted the intruder with a gun and told him to leave.
- He complied and left...

(Now comes to question)

Do you report to the police that you scared the **** out of the intruder by pointing a gun at him?

---

In his scenario I don't think you need to tell the police you draw your gun and threaten him to shoot so he left...

It'll be better to report the incident and tell the police that you heard the noise, came to inspect, saw the intruder, yelled at him and he ran out. End of the story...

I don't think intruder will go to the nearest police station and complain that he was about to rob your place but you came out with a gun and scared him.
Then he'll produce the evidence of you aiming a gun at him by presenting a polaroid he took during the intrusion...

I say, not likely...

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

So you make him lie face down and put hands on his head.

And then he removes his hand an reaches into a pocket.

BANG! BANG! BANG!

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

1. 
   
   I have zero desire to forcibly detain somebody in my home who doesn't belong there.
   

1. 
   
   I made that mistake about fifteen years ago when I lived in Houston. He came back a month later while I was at work and robbed me blind. That won't ever happen again.

 

[cmort666]

I made that mistake about fifteen years ago when I lived in Houston. He came back a month later while I was at work and robbed me blind. That won't ever happen again.

You hold him as long as you like.

I'm not going there because if I start playing cop and things go wrong, I stand to lose a LOT more than he could take.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

You hold him as long as you like.

I'm not going there because if I start playing cop and things go wrong, I stand to lose a LOT more than he could take.

Nothing about this is "playing cop." You should reconsider whether it's really to your benefit to be armed.