How do you identify a South African Victory Model?

[canoeguy]

I have been collecting Victory Models for a few years now, and have found six so far, a blued 5" .38 S&W Pre-Victory with British acceptance marks, a 5" .38 S&W British Lend Lease Victory, a 5" .38 S&W Australian Lend Lease Victory, a 4" .38 Special Victory marked "Frankfurt Railway Police", a 4" .38 Special Navy marked Victory, and a 4" .38 Special DSC Victory that shipped to Great Northern Paper Company in Millinocket, Maine in December 1942.

I have in mind to get a New Zealand and South African Victory Model to round out my collection. I understand New Zealand Victories will have "NZ" on the back strap, how do you identify a South African Victory Model? I have heard they will be in .38 S&W Caliber, and may have 4" barrels. Any other identifying marks?

Any other countries I may be missing to round a collection of Victory Models?

Thanks,

Canoeguy

 

[canoeguy]

I have been collecting Victory Models for a few years now, and have found six so far, a blued 5" .38 S&W Pre-Victory with British acceptance marks, a 5" .38 S&W British Lend Lease Victory, a 5" .38 S&W Australian Lend Lease Victory, a 4" .38 Special Victory marked "Frankfurt Railway Police", a 4" .38 Special Navy marked Victory, and a 4" .38 Special DSC Victory that shipped to Great Northern Paper Company in Millinocket, Maine in December 1942.

I have in mind to get a New Zealand and South African Victory Model to round out my collection. I understand New Zealand Victories will have "NZ" on the back strap, how do you identify a South African Victory Model? I have heard they will be in .38 S&W Caliber, and may have 4" barrels. Any other identifying marks?

Any other countries I may be missing to round a collection of Victory Models?

Thanks,

Canoeguy

 

[LWCmdr45]

There are two basic categories of the S&W .38-200 British Service Revolver used by the South African forces: those that were ordered by South Africa directly from S&W (in fact, the first such order received by S&W) and those that were distributed through the Lend-Lease program.

The first category will all be pre-Victory Models with bright blue finish and checkered stocks, all with 4" barrels. The approximate SN ranges are 685xxx to 719xxx.

The Lend-Lease guns will mostly be the standard phosphate-finished, plain stock Victory Models, all or most with 5" barrels, in just about any SN range.

If you come across a pre-V.M. with original 4" barrel, the odds are good that it will letter as a S.A. gun. Otherwise, you have to look for the South African property marking, a broad arrow (/|\) enclosed within a "U." The problem is that not too many of the property-marked guns are known.

As far as other examples you may wish to look for to round out your collection, there were other countries that were given these revolvers in the postwar years. Other European countries, of course, and even some (RARE!) Israeli-marked examples are known. And, there's the elusive (and frequently faked!) USMC-marked version. Probably the easieist addiional example to find would be one with Canadian property markings.

Good hunting!

Steve

 

[canoeguy]

Thanks for the info, Steve, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a 4" South African Victory with a Broad Arrow and a "U"!

Canoeguy

 

[RacingSnake]

Steve, are you aware of the Victory or pre-Victory model being available in 38 Special? As I undertand it, the Victory Models used by the South African Police post WW2 were only in 38S&W. Is it possible that some 38 Special were manufactured?

RacingSnake

 

[DRB]

My South African marked pre victory has a 5 inch barrel. It letters as having been sent to South Africa and is marked with the broadarrow U for Union of South Africa. Came from a police trade in so I have no idea how it got from South Africa to the US. No British proofs.

 

[DRB]

Here are some pictures serial is 803237 it letters to the BPC in Capetown South Africa ship date of Sep 24th 1941. Note the P on the butt also note there are no USP marking or British proofs only the Union Of South Africa mark and rack number. Looks like the Lanyard was added later. Letter says nothing about a lanyard just 5 inch blue with checkered walnut grips.

 

[rajah]

As stated the official SA ordnance mark is a U (for Union of South Africa) enclosing a broad arrow. For what it is worth, when I was in South Africa in 1985 I saw police officers carrying what appeared to be SW Victory models with laynard loops in full flap leather holsters. I could only see the butt of the revolver but it is hard to mistake a SW Victory!

 

[LWCmdr45]

Snake,

Both Pre-Victory and Victory Models were made in .38 Special, but most were for U.S. users, both military and civilian. Canada ordered some pre-Victory .38 Specials (evidently before deciding to standardize on the .38-200 chambering of the motherland) and the British Purchasing Commission was, for a while, grabbing anything and everything, including .38 Specials (and .45ACP, .45 Colt, .357 Magnum, .38 Super, etc., etc.!). While they could theoretically have been issued to front line troops, the "oddball" (to the Brits) calibers were more logically confined to non-combat applications. In general, though, if it has a provenance with Britain or one of her Commonwealth nations, it'll be a .38-200 (marked ".38 S&W CTG").

DRB,

Thank you for posting your gun! Yours is the first we have for the database that has lettered to being shipped to the BPC in South Africa! A pre-Lend Lease, pre-Victory shipped to South Africa--- wow! (You bum! Seriously, congrats; you're a lucky guy.) I stand by what I said about there being two "basic categories" of the South African guns, but this doesn't fall into either of those "basic categories." Just as we know (in theory) that there were some 4" guns that went somewhere other than South Africa, we now have confirmed that there were also some pre-Lend Lease 5" guns that went directly to South Africa. I'd appreciate it if you could post the exact wording that Roy used in describing the BPC/Capetown connection in his letter.

It appears that yor gun has only the "P" proof at the butt, a normal marking for that time period. I'd bet ready money that the lanyard hole is factory-drilled; Roy's letters don't ever stipulate the presence of the lanyard loop.

Steve

 

[OFT]

DRB, the lanyard ring hole is a factory job. Revolvers that did not receive the lanyard ring would have the serial number centered on the bottom of the grip. If the hole was added after factory it would have pierced part of the serial number.

Nice piece.

 

[DRB]

Here is what Roy says

"We have researched you Smith & Wesson .38/200 British Service model, British Government Contract, caliber .38 Smith & Wesson revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun with serial number 803237, was shipped from our factory on September 24th, 1941 and delivered to the British Purchasing commission, Capetown, South Africa. The records indicate that this pistol was shipped with a 5 inch barrel, blue finish and checkered Walnut grips"

I also have another pre victory that letters to Australia which has no markings other then factory applied as in no Aussie property marks or British proofs. It was shipped May 29th 1941 to the BPC in Sidney Australia. Serial is 773895.

Got 2 6 inchers that letter to the BPC New York City NY as well.

Now all I need is a 4 inch .38/200 they seem to be very scarce.

 

[DRB]

One of my pre victorys the lanyard loop is specific in the description from Roy. The South African came from a local outfit that does police trade ins. I got it for $150 a couple years ago, they had not a clue the significance of the marking. I on the other hand knew what it meant and was pretty excited to get it. When the letter came back showing shipment to South Africa I was grinning from ear to ear. Pates book shows a order for the South Africans of of 7,500 5 inchers placed on 6/7/41 I am certain this is one of them. Not sure we can assume they were all sent to Capetown.

 

[digi-shots]

DRB...

Nice find! you've got a keeper there!


Steve,

In looking at shipment dates, it appears that the BPC was still purchasing S&W's AFTER the Lend Lease Act went into effect (March 1941). Is this correct?? (just wonder why they would buy guns when the US was ready to
"Lend" them for "free"). Guess I need to do some more reading.

 

[LWCmdr45]

DRB,

Thanks for the direct quote from Roy's letter. I stand corrected in re Roy's citing the presence of a lanyard loop in a letter. Either my memory is failing me (a frequent accusation from my wife!) or it's just coincidental that the letters that I have seen have had no mention of the lanyard. (I just assume that any gun in this period has the loop.)

Would it be possible for you to send us the info on your two 6 inchers for the database? Either post it here or, if you'd prefer, e-mail me off-forum at [email protected] (and remove the "NOSPAM," natch). And, I assume that your mentioned Australian pre-V.M. (#773895) was a 5" .38-200, blued with checkered walnut stocks and a "P" proof at the butt?

Linda,

While the Lend-Lease Act was passed by Congress on 11 March, 1941, it took a while for the wheels to get into motion. My research indicates that the practice of stamping arms with the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" (later, to be changed to U.S. PROPERTY) marking wasn't enacted until July, 1941. It is my belief that the first Lend-Lease Smiths were shipped no earlier than August/September and more likely not until circa December.

Regradless of the specific date, there was bound to be some cross-over. Smith still had to fulfill the contracts for the B.P.C. guns that had been negotiated in early 1940, long before FDR's first mention of the Lend-Lease program in December, 1940. As far as paying for the B.P.C. guns, remember that the Brits, in 1939, had fronted S&W a cool million for the development of the disastrous 9mm. "Light Rifle." Having already spent the majority of the advanced money, Smith was more than willing to supply the British with revolvers at a reduced price in lieu of the failed design.

Steve

 

[digi-shots]

DRB,

Thanks for posting the info on your Victory's, so many of them have quite interesting backgrounds.

Steve,

Thanks for answering my questions regarding BPC and Lend Lease. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading about the advance monies paid to S&W by the Brits.

Linda

 

[PJGP]

I have been a bit slow in responding to this thread, but let me answer some of the questions and pose some of my own.

All South African Union Defence Force (UDF) S&W 38s will have the "Arrow in U" property mark on the backstrap with a rack number below. All are square butt with "lanyard swivel" to quote S&W. The first two orders were for 4" barrels. The third order for 7500 placed in June 1941 was to be for 4", but somehow got changed in America to 5".

DBR's pistol was packed at S&W in around July and sent to a UDF depot outside Pretoria via Cape Town (Pretoria is a long way from any port!) The BPC acted as intermediary in the States and had nothing to do with the order which was, like its predecesors, directly between the South Africans and S&W.

Lend Lease was between the US and Britain initally, but in 1942 the London Munitions Assignment Board was formed and from then on direct orders by individual Dominion countries were stopped. All requirements had to met in order of priority and that is why later UDF S&W 38s were Lend Lease guns.

Now to my questions:
In a different thread will5a1 told me that the P proof mark was applied by the US Ordnance Board at Hartford. Why did DRB's pistol, and one of mine from the same order, get the P since I cannot see that they should have gone near Hartford? Or was the P put on at S&W?

Secondly, my 4" from the first order has no P, but under the barrel on the flat and in front of the serial number there is a B. What is this?

Cheers from just outside of Pretoria
Peter

 

[LWCmdr45]

PJGP,

Welcome to the board!

The Hartford Ordnance District was actually located in Springfield, Massachusetts, just "down the road a piece" from the S&W factory. In fact, in late '41/early '42, it was renamed the Springfield Ordnance District. (Factory letters usually cite the "H.O.D.," regardless of shipping date.)

My research indicates that the Ordnance District employees, usually civilians, actually performed their inspections at the S&W factory and applied the markings ["P" proof(s), Ordnance 'flaming bomb,' et al.] there.

The "B" marking under the barrel is a commercial marking indicating a Blued finish.

Hope this helps! If you ever come across any S.A. Victory or pre-Victory Models in your part of the world, please post the details.

Steve

 

[Speedo2]

Secondly, my 4" from the first order has no P, but under the barrel on the flat and in front of the serial number there is a B. What is this?

I can't do anything for your first question, but as to the above, the "B" stands for Blue, as in blued finish. Pre-war, blue barrel flats were so marked; nickel finished guns were marked "N". -S2

 

[digi-shots]

PJGP,

The pre-Victory South African I have does not show any markings on the backstrap but does letter as being shipped May 3, 1940 and delivered to the Union of South Africa (Capetown).

It does show some British markings including this mark on the left side right behind the trigger guard. Any idea what it stands for:

 

[LWCmdr45]

Linda,

Your marking appears to be a variation of the Birmingham "Viewer's Mark." (See Pate, pp. 107-08.) This suspicion might be confirmed if it has any "BNP" proofmarks. The problem stems from the undecipherable (to my eyes!) character on the right and the evidently mis-struck "I" to the left. As Pate explains, the letter "I" was not used.

Steve

 

[Texas Star]

Ask on Gunboards.com in the British Gun Pub forum.

T-Star

 

[Texas Star]

PJGP-

Why did South Africa order four-inch barrels? The M-37 holsters are made for five-inch barrels.

Were different holsters issued?

I have seen a photo of RAF (Not, I think, SAAF) pilots in North Africa. They had six-inch .38-200's, and the flaps could barely be snapped on the flaps. The butts stuck way out, making it easy to ID the guns.

How long did South Africa issue these guns before 9mm Star and Browning pistols replaced them? I think the Police there also had them, or did they have .38 Special examples before the Walther P-1 was issued?

Thanks,

T-Star

 

[digi-shots]

Thanks, Steve!

Yep, there's a bunch of BNP's on the gun (each charge hole on sides of cylinder, frame & barrel).

The letter on the left is an I, opposite is what looks like the number 5, and below is a 2.

I noticed in Charlie Pate's book that the letter "I" wasn't listed... (??)

I think "Lefty", who posts on this forum, has same or similar marking on his 4" blued South African.

Texas Star... I've got an acquaintance who was with the South African Police.. the next time I see him I'll ask about the 9mm. He was going to try and get me some vintage South African ammo.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Linda;

Here's mine (again) for those of you who haven't seen it previously. Letters to South Africa 1941. Four inch 38/200, blue, checkered walnut with medallions. Bottom photo shows Birmingham View proof mark.

 

[PJGP]

So many questions!

Firstly, thanks for the info Steve and Speedo 2.

Digi-shots (Linda?): Your pistol is not a South African one because: it would definitely have a UDF number: and no S&W 38s were shipped to this country until July/August 1940. However, at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to let Britain have the 4600 revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA. This was becasue the Dunkirk evacuation had led to panic buying by Britain in fear of a German invasion. I am sure that your pistol (pistol, revolver is the correct British terminology; I am English)is one of those 4600. The mark you illustrate is a Birmingham proof house coded date stamp for 1958, inspector number 2. Oldflatfoot's (or is it Lefty's?)pistol has the same date stamp!

OLdflatfoot/Lefty: Does your pistol have a UDF number? If so I wonder why it passed through the B'Ham proof house in 1958?

T-Star: Because they were used to the 4" 455 Webley. At the time they had no holsters for the S&W 38s. Locally made Pattern 37 holster were subsequently made and this was fortunate since later S&Ws were 5"! Yes, the RAF used some of the first (6") S&W 38s that Britain bought. The S&W were replaced by Stars in, I think, the 1960s. The SA Police used Webley and S&W 38s until the 1980s, but the P38 started to be used in the 1960s.

The plan is to write a short book on all of this, but when is a good question!

Cheers
Peter

 

[digi-shots]

Thanks, Peter!

That's interesting... I'll have to do some reading up on this.

I did have mine lettered by S&W and was informed that it was one of a 1200 unit shipment that was shipped and delivered to the Union of South Africa (Capetown) on May 3, 1940. Here's a pic of of the revolver with some UK ammo items:

I believe Lefty also had his lettered and was informed that his was one of 1400 units that was delivered to Capetown on May 22, 1940.

 

[LWCmdr45]

Peter raises an interesting point here: that the first South African guns did not end up in that country, but were appropriated by the Motherland. All of the (albeit, relatively few) examples that we have in the database that letter as being shipped to South Africa in May, 1940, have postwar British proofs. (We have some later-shipped S.A. guns that also have British proofs but, to date, we have attributed all of these examples to the exigencies of war. If a South African officer fell on the battlefield, his revolver, et al., would have been taken by surviving comrades. If an English soldier had been present, he would not have turned his nose up at a "free" back-up to his SMLE, Sten, Bren, etc., just because it had been an S.A.-issued weapon! When he turned the gun in at home at the end of the hostilities, it would theoretically have been treated just like any other B.S.R. and, eventually, proofed in England for sale as surplus.)

It is entirely possible that S&W *did* ship the guns from their factory to a South African destination... but, they were waylaid *after* that and designated for shipment to England. This definitely requires more research! Peter, can you cite a source (written or oral) to corroborate the "none shipped to S.A. until June/July, 1940?"

If this can be confirmed, we may need to change our desciption of these May, 1940, guns as "South African contract" guns and not as "South African shipped" guns.

Steve

 

[digi-shots]

Hi Steve,

This is getting interesting!

How about this scenario...

Both Lefty/Old Flatfoot and my "South African" were part of the original Allied Purchase by South Africa on 2/19/40 of 8,800 units (C.Pate p.118).

Mine was part of a 1200 unit shipment on May 3, 1940 (Roy Jinks)
Lefty's was part of a 1400 unit shipment on May 22, 1940 (Roy Jinks)

Both these shipments occurred before Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940).
Since no one knew at the time of the forthcoming "loss at Dunkirk" there was no immediate need to rearm the "Motherland" with these early shipments.

Are you aware of any pre-Dunkirk shipments to South Africa? If my math is right, there should be another 1600 unit shipment, not counting the 4600 units that Peter cited.

Linda

 

[Texas Star]

Peter-

Why would they have been used to four-inch barelled .455's? The MK. VI Webley dates from May, 1915, and normally had a six-inch barrel.

Moreover, the Enfield .38 was adopted by 1932, and had a five-inch barrel. I have seen a movie ("Drums") made in 1937, and the Pattern 1937 web gear was already in use. The film was set in India.

T-Star

 

[LWCmdr45]

Linda has done her homework well, but allow me to play "devil's advocate." The specific disaster at Dunkirk might not have been needed to precipitate Great Britain into "appropriating" the South African guns. What they may have only suspected before was confirmed when Germany moved into Czechoslovakia in March, 1939. I think "Mother England" knew what was coming and was gearing up as quickly as possible; they knew they were going to be in a "fightin' war." From its introduction through March of 1939, the Brits had ordered manufacture of only ~20,000 Enfield No. 2 revolvers, but in June/July of '39, they ordered 87,574 more! (Note that this was before the invasion of Poland and the resulting declaration of war and almost a year before Dunkirk and the Battle of France.) In February, 1940, a study was released analyzing "deficiency between requirement and stock." This study determined that the Brits should anticipate needing over 233,000 additional handguns! As they kept ordering more and more Enfields (and were later to also contract Webley, et al., to assist), there were other arms that were needed, too. That's what prompted the contracting of S&W to design & manufacture a 9mm. "Light Rifle," the failure of which was to ultimately result in the negotiation to provide Britain with Smith .38 H.E. revolvers. As best as I can determine, the first .38 H.E. contract of record between S&W and the B.P.C. wasn't finalized until May 28, 1940. [Ironically, if I'm correct, the guns used to satisfy the one million dollar contract were .38 Special models and not the .38 S&W (.38-200) round that we normally associate with the S&W "British Service Revolver!"] By this time, the "Phoney War" was over as the Nazi blitzkrieg began rolling into France and the Low Countries. England needed arms! It is entirely possible that some "gentlemen's network" (read: "good ole boys!") added a negotiation contingency of this large contract… one that would virtually bail out S&W from near bankruptcy, if that's not over-stating it! Perhaps the crates were still waiting on the docks of Boston/New York for commercial shipping--- this was, after all, still pre-Lend Lease, pre-Liberty ships and pre-FedEx!--- and were waylaid and re-marked for shipping to England; or, perhaps the ship carrying those crates had England as its first destination and it was unloaded there before heading south down the Atlantic; or, .... The possibilities are endless. Whether it was with "permission" of Smuts' government is probably lost, but he was pro-British and had been a trusted colleague of Churchill for many years by the time the latter moved from his position as First Lord of the Admiralty to succeeded Chamberlain as Prime Minister in that all-important month of May, 1940.

I guess the point is that we may never know for sure whether the guns from these first shipments all ended up in England and none(?) arrived in Cape Town unless (insert plug here!) we one day get a submission to the database with confirmed provenance. It's sure interesting to think about, anyways!

Steve