HE_OFFICER
Member
Here's my Bavarian marked Victory, I love it!
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How do you identify a South African Victory Model?
- Thread starter canoeguy
- Start date
digi-shots
Member
Steve,
The plot thickens...
Thanks for your comments and additional info.
I went back through some old postings and came across another similar South Africa gun, s/n 685,087. It too had the BNP stamp along with the "civilian or commercial" view mark; with no mention of the U^ on the backstrap. I wonder if this gun was ever lettered and I'm also curious as to where & when it shipped. I'm guessing by the serial number that it too, shipped in May of 1940.
I also found mention of s/n 685,350 but found no details on the gun.
I guess mine could have been "weighlayed" on it's way to South Africa and
used by British Troops, however, it is strange that there's no military broad arrows markings on it. Maybe during the pre-BPC time frame this step was skipped ??
Do you show any other early So. Africa shipments in your database? Especially any earlier ones with the U^ on the backstrap.
Linda
The plot thickens...
I went back through some old postings and came across another similar South Africa gun, s/n 685,087. It too had the BNP stamp along with the "civilian or commercial" view mark; with no mention of the U^ on the backstrap. I wonder if this gun was ever lettered and I'm also curious as to where & when it shipped. I'm guessing by the serial number that it too, shipped in May of 1940.
I also found mention of s/n 685,350 but found no details on the gun.
I guess mine could have been "weighlayed" on it's way to South Africa and
used by British Troops, however, it is strange that there's no military broad arrows markings on it. Maybe during the pre-BPC time frame this step was skipped ??
Do you show any other early So. Africa shipments in your database? Especially any earlier ones with the U^ on the backstrap.
Linda
Texas Star
US Veteran
HE-
How odd that your Bavarian gun is marked in English! I think it's authentic, but why wouldn't they mark them in German?
T-Star
How odd that your Bavarian gun is marked in English! I think it's authentic, but why wouldn't they mark them in German?
T-Star
digi-shots
Member
Texas Star:
I think these were for post-war Germany police use.
I think these were for post-war Germany police use.
HE_OFFICER
Member
I've got this pistol lettered from Roy Jinks as a lend lease pistol, but they have no way of showing what it's final disposition was. The Brits could give these away to whomever they wanted I guess. Kinda makes you wonder why they bothered to stamp them US property doesn't it?
Reminds me of all the chopped up Tommy guns that are being resold to the american public from our "friends" in Russia. They apparently had no use for them during WWII due to the caliber and the good old ATF wouldn't let them be returned to the States in working order.
Gotta go, think I'm going to be sick thinking about it.
LWCmdr45
Member
Linda,
First, remember that the database contains relatively few South African-lettered examples. For example, we have, to date, a total of only seven S.A. guns that letter as being shipped in May, 1940. Of those seven, we have markings info on six: NONE of those six have any South African property markings and three DO have postwar British Civilian proofs. (SN 685350 is one of these. There are also a couple of other NON-lettered 4" examples, including SN 685087, with similar results.) The first mention we have of a U/'Broad Arrow' marking is from a July, 1940, shipment.
Now, just to further confuse the issue, we also have one from later in 1940 (non-lettered, but inferred by its SN) that is marked with the U/'Broad Arrow' AND also has British post-war civilian proofs! (That's the one that started the "battlefield pick-up by a Brit" theory mentioned.)
Of the earliest (ca. 1940) B.S.R.s with a British provenance (shipped to the B.P.C. N.Y.C.), the only one with a 'Broad Arrow' is also "RCAF" marked. At that time, it seems that only a "P" proof (American-applied) and, occasionally, a "BO" (believed to be "British Order") marking are found.
Until more information comes in, it seems that our assumptions must continue to be deductions based on extrapolation with few verifiable facts.
Texas Star,
We have, to date, nine examples of Bavaria Municipal Police B.S.R.s in the database that carry markings as shown on HE_Officer's. Of those that were gifted to various postwar Continental L.E. agencies, it seems to be split between English and native tongue markings. (Perhaps the former were marked by the giftor and the latter by the giftee?)
Steve
First, remember that the database contains relatively few South African-lettered examples. For example, we have, to date, a total of only seven S.A. guns that letter as being shipped in May, 1940. Of those seven, we have markings info on six: NONE of those six have any South African property markings and three DO have postwar British Civilian proofs. (SN 685350 is one of these. There are also a couple of other NON-lettered 4" examples, including SN 685087, with similar results.) The first mention we have of a U/'Broad Arrow' marking is from a July, 1940, shipment.
Now, just to further confuse the issue, we also have one from later in 1940 (non-lettered, but inferred by its SN) that is marked with the U/'Broad Arrow' AND also has British post-war civilian proofs! (That's the one that started the "battlefield pick-up by a Brit" theory mentioned.)
Of the earliest (ca. 1940) B.S.R.s with a British provenance (shipped to the B.P.C. N.Y.C.), the only one with a 'Broad Arrow' is also "RCAF" marked. At that time, it seems that only a "P" proof (American-applied) and, occasionally, a "BO" (believed to be "British Order") marking are found.
Until more information comes in, it seems that our assumptions must continue to be deductions based on extrapolation with few verifiable facts.
Texas Star,
We have, to date, nine examples of Bavaria Municipal Police B.S.R.s in the database that carry markings as shown on HE_Officer's. Of those that were gifted to various postwar Continental L.E. agencies, it seems to be split between English and native tongue markings. (Perhaps the former were marked by the giftor and the latter by the giftee?)
Steve
Texas Star
US Veteran
Steve-
That's sort of my own thinking. I know that both the British and the US supplied these guns to German and Austrian police, who had been disarmed of German weapons following the war.
T-Star
That's sort of my own thinking. I know that both the British and the US supplied these guns to German and Austrian police, who had been disarmed of German weapons following the war.
T-Star
PJGP
Member
Don't confuse South Africa with Britain! During the 1920s and 30s the UDF was starved of funds and only had a very small full time regular staff. They had very few revolvers, most of which were (old) Mk IV 4". Likewise they used old leather holsters. I have seen a photo of soldiers carrying Mk VI 6" in open bottom 4" holsters with the foresight and muzzle protruding!
PJGP
Member
Been a bit busy so didn't come back earlier.
Steve, I have been researching the South African S&Ws for some time; you can rest assured that what I say is verifiable. You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York. The SA Legation and later the BPC then had to find and organise a ship to Cape Town, from where the guns were sent to Pretoria. The factory letter date can thus be some months earlier than the received in SA date; this became a bigger problem as pressure on shipping resources increased.
On the 30th May 1940 the British begged for the South African revolvers, none of which had then left the US. The request was agreed overnight and the 4600 that were awaiting shipping, or were virtually finished, were transferd to the British. The factory contract people would have been party to this, but it would appear that the factory "shipping" records were not changed. No revolvers were received here until mid August and these were the result of S&W starting again with manufacture for SA.
The lowest UDF number that I have seen so far is 112 which is S/N 693675, but UDF 1053 is S/N 721300. The batches were numbered as they arrived and the first batch was qty 2200, so both these guns came on the same ship. S/Ns were scattered and I have not yet seen a 68xxxx.
I feel certain that any post war British commercially proofed specimen without a UDF number never saw South Africa. We do find a fair number of V suffix S/N Lend Lease guns here with BNP proof marks. However, I an sure that these were commercial imports in the 1960s, the same as "War Finish" marked Webley Mk IV 38s. [I mainly collect Webleys] Parker-Hale sold lots of both of these types of revolver.
For the database; S/N 697923 6" is marked RAF.
Peter
Steve, I have been researching the South African S&Ws for some time; you can rest assured that what I say is verifiable. You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York. The SA Legation and later the BPC then had to find and organise a ship to Cape Town, from where the guns were sent to Pretoria. The factory letter date can thus be some months earlier than the received in SA date; this became a bigger problem as pressure on shipping resources increased.
On the 30th May 1940 the British begged for the South African revolvers, none of which had then left the US. The request was agreed overnight and the 4600 that were awaiting shipping, or were virtually finished, were transferd to the British. The factory contract people would have been party to this, but it would appear that the factory "shipping" records were not changed. No revolvers were received here until mid August and these were the result of S&W starting again with manufacture for SA.
The lowest UDF number that I have seen so far is 112 which is S/N 693675, but UDF 1053 is S/N 721300. The batches were numbered as they arrived and the first batch was qty 2200, so both these guns came on the same ship. S/Ns were scattered and I have not yet seen a 68xxxx.
I feel certain that any post war British commercially proofed specimen without a UDF number never saw South Africa. We do find a fair number of V suffix S/N Lend Lease guns here with BNP proof marks. However, I an sure that these were commercial imports in the 1960s, the same as "War Finish" marked Webley Mk IV 38s. [I mainly collect Webleys] Parker-Hale sold lots of both of these types of revolver.
For the database; S/N 697923 6" is marked RAF.
Peter
Texas Star
US Veteran
Peter-
Thanks! That was very informative!
What are your laws like for collectors? I have read that a gun owner there can have only ten guns! (Since the black govt. took power.)
T-Star
Thanks! That was very informative!
What are your laws like for collectors? I have read that a gun owner there can have only ten guns! (Since the black govt. took power.)
T-Star
digi-shots
Member
quote: PJGP,
You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York.
From the early 1900's to the late 1930's various steamships ran the route between Boston - New York and were berthed at Pier 14. There were a few other steamship lines located in NYC during this timeframe that I'm still researching.
From 1936 to 1950, all ocean shipments were under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Maritime Commission and only licensed freight forwarders could handle and arrange overseas shipments.
You need to remember that S&W didn't ship anything; they sent the revolvers to New York.
From the early 1900's to the late 1930's various steamships ran the route between Boston - New York and were berthed at Pier 14. There were a few other steamship lines located in NYC during this timeframe that I'm still researching.
From 1936 to 1950, all ocean shipments were under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Maritime Commission and only licensed freight forwarders could handle and arrange overseas shipments.
Bell Charter Oak Holsters
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Just realized I made a typographical error concerning the shipping date on my BSR SA Contract revolver. It was May 1940, not 1941. Hope I haven't added to the confusion.
It does not have a UDF mark or number. It does have the commercial Birmingham proofs....ad naseum.
It does not have a UDF mark or number. It does have the commercial Birmingham proofs....ad naseum.
digi-shots
Member
Lefty, no problem.
I remembered that yours shipped just a few weeks after mine and that they both were in the month of May 1940.
I guess both shipments "could have sat" at the docks in NY for a while before shipment... however, S&W was producing these .38/200's as fast as they could. Most S&W wartime shipments "appear" to be a little more in consecutive serial number order than post-war, etc.
There were a few steamship lines that ran the NY - So. African route during this period of time, Farrell Lines and the American South African Line (also owned by Farrell Lines). A few of the Amer.So.Af. Line ships were sold/transferred/taken by the British and made MOWT ships (Ministry of War Transports). I've got a list of them... including the ones that were sunk by torpedo off the coast of South Africa.
I wonder when S&W was actually paid for these revolvers (in advance, when shipped or when received..?) Somewhere, I think I read that the pre British Purchase Commission guns were "cash & carry".
Linda
I remembered that yours shipped just a few weeks after mine and that they both were in the month of May 1940.
I guess both shipments "could have sat" at the docks in NY for a while before shipment... however, S&W was producing these .38/200's as fast as they could. Most S&W wartime shipments "appear" to be a little more in consecutive serial number order than post-war, etc.
There were a few steamship lines that ran the NY - So. African route during this period of time, Farrell Lines and the American South African Line (also owned by Farrell Lines). A few of the Amer.So.Af. Line ships were sold/transferred/taken by the British and made MOWT ships (Ministry of War Transports). I've got a list of them... including the ones that were sunk by torpedo off the coast of South Africa.
I wonder when S&W was actually paid for these revolvers (in advance, when shipped or when received..?) Somewhere, I think I read that the pre British Purchase Commission guns were "cash & carry".
Linda
LWCmdr45
Member
Peter,
I can't tell you how welcome your contributions are; we're lucky you found this forum! As you can see, we here on this forum, mostly Americans, also have a great interest in the South African S&Ws. Your input on this subject is invaluable. Have you considered writing down your findings? Inclusion of photocopies of any pertinent South African documents would be of unique interest to collectors.
Your description of Britain co-opting the original S.A. shipments makes sense. It matches one of the possibilities I'd posited, as I'd figured it'd take a while to get from Springfield and laded on board a freighter. As you say, factory shipping information probably records the contractor of the order. Linda's additional research (you'd make a good "cold case" detective, Linda!) appears to corroborate this change in destination for the first batches of the S.A. contract after they left the Smith factory.
One can only imagine the trans-Atlantic chatter going on in those final days of May, 1940! S&W and Britain hadn't signed the final contract for their guns until the 28th and in the midst of the Dunkirk evacuation would have been, as you say, desperate for munitions of all types.
Re SN 697923: it is a .38 S&W (.38-200), I presume? Where on the gun is the "RAF" marking and are there any other markings? If you have info on any other Smiths from this period, we'd love to have it for the database.
Linda,
While I agree that later wartime shipments were generally more in SN order, these first B.S.R.s were still jumping around a bit. For example, we have two guns in the 694xxx-695xxx range that weren't shipped until Sept. 20, 1940 (to the exiled Norwegian Air Force in Canada) while one of the 1400 "South African" guns shipped May 22nd was in the 697xxx range.
Steve
I can't tell you how welcome your contributions are; we're lucky you found this forum! As you can see, we here on this forum, mostly Americans, also have a great interest in the South African S&Ws. Your input on this subject is invaluable. Have you considered writing down your findings? Inclusion of photocopies of any pertinent South African documents would be of unique interest to collectors.
Your description of Britain co-opting the original S.A. shipments makes sense. It matches one of the possibilities I'd posited, as I'd figured it'd take a while to get from Springfield and laded on board a freighter. As you say, factory shipping information probably records the contractor of the order. Linda's additional research (you'd make a good "cold case" detective, Linda!) appears to corroborate this change in destination for the first batches of the S.A. contract after they left the Smith factory.
One can only imagine the trans-Atlantic chatter going on in those final days of May, 1940! S&W and Britain hadn't signed the final contract for their guns until the 28th and in the midst of the Dunkirk evacuation would have been, as you say, desperate for munitions of all types.
Re SN 697923: it is a .38 S&W (.38-200), I presume? Where on the gun is the "RAF" marking and are there any other markings? If you have info on any other Smiths from this period, we'd love to have it for the database.
Linda,
While I agree that later wartime shipments were generally more in SN order, these first B.S.R.s were still jumping around a bit. For example, we have two guns in the 694xxx-695xxx range that weren't shipped until Sept. 20, 1940 (to the exiled Norwegian Air Force in Canada) while one of the 1400 "South African" guns shipped May 22nd was in the 697xxx range.
Steve
PJGP
Member
The SA order for 7500 5" was 25% with order and remaining 75% before the guns left the factory; price $21-90 each. What do you Yanks say - "in God we trust, all others pay cash"?
PJGP
Member
Not so! Since mid 2004 maximum possible for the man in the street (minimum is zero if licence applications refused)is four for "occasional" hunting or sports shooting, only one can be a handgun, no self-loading rifle or shotgun. You have to "motivate" (ie convince the police)each application. One hangun or shotgun for self-defence, which comes out of the four (thus total still four)and a very good motivation is needed.
These limits don't apply to active members of police approved hunting and sports shooting organisations, but each application must fit with particular sports discipline or hunting quarry.
Serious collectors who are members of strictly controlled collectors' associations have no limit on firearm numbers. However, again each firearm must fit your genuine field of collecting.
The big disaster for collecting is that everyone must re-licence their existing guns from old law to new one. This means that the man in the street will not and/or cannot re-licence the old collectable guns that we collectors seek. Who hunts or sports shoots with a Luger, Webley, Victory Model, etc? Don't forget the one handgun rule either. Thus large numbers of collectable guns, especially handguns are being surrendered and melted down.
Not much future for new collectors or additions to existing collections once the re-licencing process finishes in 2009 I am afraid.
Pretty depressing, but in England it is worse!
Peter
PJGP
Member
To quote from my earlier posting Steve "The plan is to write a short book on all of this, but when is a good question!" Can't give too much away until then!
With regards to the RAF specimen, yes, it is in .38 S&W and the RAF is on the RHS below the cylinder. I will have to see it again if still available to check other markings. I had a mind to buy it, but the price was too steep. Hoewever, I think that it might come down.
Peter
digi-shots
Member
Peter,
Thanks for all your help!
In addition to the info on the 7500 5" ordered, do you have any info on payments for the first two orders for 4" blued S&W's:
8,800 ordered Feb. 19, 1940
5,047 ordered Sep. 9, 1940
Thanks again!
PJGP
Member
digi-shots
Member
Hi Peter,
Thanks again for the additional information!
I do have another question...
when you said, "free alongside ship New York"...
could New York also be construed to mean the ship "New York" ??
There was a passenger/cargo ship named "City of New York" that was part of Farrell's American South African Lines. It ran the NY-South Africa route and was sunk by torpedo on it's way from Mozambique to NY in 1942.
Linda
PJGP
Member
I really don't think so Linda. The quote was a general one and proposed monthly deliveries - No one would propose using the same ship surely? The way I worded the quote was exactly as it was written.
peter
digi-shots
Member
Thanks, Peter
That's what I figured and just wanted to make sure.
Nowadays, it's common to see shipping manifests "F.O.B. NY", etc.
FOB meaning "freight on board", I guess very similar to "free along side ship".
By the way, have you had your South African stamped S&W's lettered by S&W to see what the shipping date and destination was?
Linda
That's what I figured and just wanted to make sure.
Nowadays, it's common to see shipping manifests "F.O.B. NY", etc.
FOB meaning "freight on board", I guess very similar to "free along side ship".
By the way, have you had your South African stamped S&W's lettered by S&W to see what the shipping date and destination was?
Linda
Texas Star
US Veteran
Where did South African troops fight in WW II? North Africa? Italy?
I've read that some Afrikaaners supported the Germans, and weren't too enthusiastic about fighting them. Those of British descent presumably felt otherwise, and the top Allied pilot in the West was South African. Had over 50 kills when he was shot down. (Marmaduke St.John Pattle) Another famous South African pilot was Adolph "Sailor" Malan, brother of a future Prime Minister, the one who was in power when apartheid began. But both flew in the RAF, not the SAAF.
I know that Prime Minister (Field Marshal) Jan Smuts took the Allied view of the war, despite having fought the British in the Second Boer War of 1899-1902.
A South African tank commander, Maj. Robert Crisp, wrote a fascinating account of his service, "Brazen Chariots". I think I recall him shooting at grouse with his .38, but don't think he mentioned the brand. Crisp was also a famous cricket player, an athlete.
T-Star
I've read that some Afrikaaners supported the Germans, and weren't too enthusiastic about fighting them. Those of British descent presumably felt otherwise, and the top Allied pilot in the West was South African. Had over 50 kills when he was shot down. (Marmaduke St.John Pattle) Another famous South African pilot was Adolph "Sailor" Malan, brother of a future Prime Minister, the one who was in power when apartheid began. But both flew in the RAF, not the SAAF.
I know that Prime Minister (Field Marshal) Jan Smuts took the Allied view of the war, despite having fought the British in the Second Boer War of 1899-1902.
A South African tank commander, Maj. Robert Crisp, wrote a fascinating account of his service, "Brazen Chariots". I think I recall him shooting at grouse with his .38, but don't think he mentioned the brand. Crisp was also a famous cricket player, an athlete.
T-Star
digi-shots
Member
ok, I should have done this first... decided to google the term and here's what I found:
Free Along Side (FAS) is an Incoterm. It means that the seller pays for transportation of the goods to the port of shipment. The buyer pays loading costs, freight, insurance, unloading costs and transportation from the port of destination to his factory.
SA's WW2 theaters of operation were predominantly North Africa and Italy as you mentioned. Some Afrikaners were sympathetic to Germany pre WW2 but then so were some in the UK and the USA. After the war started the nation came together behind the war effort. There was a lot more pro German sympathy in SA during WW1 than WW2. the SAAF flew in Korea during the Korean war, starting with Mustangs and finishing with F86s, flying alongside the USAF.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Rajah-
Thanks. I knew that and have seen photos of their cheetah -marked planes.
In WW II, they had Spitfires and Hurricanes, and some Boston bombers, I think. Also some P-40's.
The tanks that Crisp commanded were American-built Stuarts. They called them Honeys because a Texan instructor said that, "This tank is a real honey". The name caught on.
T-Star
Thanks. I knew that and have seen photos of their cheetah -marked planes.
In WW II, they had Spitfires and Hurricanes, and some Boston bombers, I think. Also some P-40's.
The tanks that Crisp commanded were American-built Stuarts. They called them Honeys because a Texan instructor said that, "This tank is a real honey". The name caught on.
T-Star
PJGP
Member
Rajah didn't mention the East Africa campaign from Jan to May 1941. The Italians had declared war and moved down from their Abyssinia base as far as Kenya. This threatend the Suez Canal/Red Sea passage to India and the Far East, and also the whole of East Africa down to South Africa.
In a quick and very succesful campaign the 1st SA Infantry Division, together with the Gold Coast Brigade, swept up through Italian Somaliland and directly into the south of Abyssinia in a pincer movement. The two arms of the pincer met in Addis Ababa and drove north towards the Italian commander's last stand at Abna Alagi 300 miles away. British and Indian troops from the Sudan approached from the north and within two weeks of the combined attack the mountain stronghold fell.
The Italian's East Africa empire fell with the loss of 30 generals, 170000 troops, 42 tanks and 103 guns. The South Africans casualties were 270, of whom 73 were killed.
Thousands of the 4" S&W 38s were rushed to the South African forces as they were built up in Kenya in preparation for this campaign.
Peter
In a quick and very succesful campaign the 1st SA Infantry Division, together with the Gold Coast Brigade, swept up through Italian Somaliland and directly into the south of Abyssinia in a pincer movement. The two arms of the pincer met in Addis Ababa and drove north towards the Italian commander's last stand at Abna Alagi 300 miles away. British and Indian troops from the Sudan approached from the north and within two weeks of the combined attack the mountain stronghold fell.
The Italian's East Africa empire fell with the loss of 30 generals, 170000 troops, 42 tanks and 103 guns. The South Africans casualties were 270, of whom 73 were killed.
Thousands of the 4" S&W 38s were rushed to the South African forces as they were built up in Kenya in preparation for this campaign.
Peter
Texas Star
US Veteran
Peter-
Thanks! I hadn't read the details of that campaign.
Do you know much about a famous novelist and philosopher named Laurens van der Post? He was in the campaign against Mussolini and I think met Haile Selassie.
Later, the Japs captured him in Burma or Malaya and he spent some bad months in a prison camp. Besides his novels, he has a good book on African cooking, including the varities in South Africa.
Marvelous author. Is he still living?
T-Star
Thanks! I hadn't read the details of that campaign.
Do you know much about a famous novelist and philosopher named Laurens van der Post? He was in the campaign against Mussolini and I think met Haile Selassie.
Later, the Japs captured him in Burma or Malaya and he spent some bad months in a prison camp. Besides his novels, he has a good book on African cooking, including the varities in South Africa.
Marvelous author. Is he still living?
T-Star
PJGP
Member
OH DEAR! I have found that my data on S/N 721300 was corrupt. The correct UDF number is 10538; the last digit is not stamped as well as the others and I missed it the first time I saw the gun - sorry.
Of the 8 that I have seen from the first 2000 received the lowest S/N is 690876 and the highest 693675.
Peter
digi-shots
Member
Thanks for the update, Peter!
I'm also trying to keep track of the numbers. Mainly just to sort out those with the "U" backstrap stamp and earlier ones without the "U".
Do you show your "1st order" having 2000 or 2200 guns?
You mentioned that the earliest U stamp was U112 (s/n 693,673).
What stamping is on the back of s/n 690,876?
thanks,
Linda
By the way, was s/n 721300 also part of the same 2000 or 2200 gun shipment?
I'm also trying to keep track of the numbers. Mainly just to sort out those with the "U" backstrap stamp and earlier ones without the "U".
Do you show your "1st order" having 2000 or 2200 guns?
You mentioned that the earliest U stamp was U112 (s/n 693,673).
What stamping is on the back of s/n 690,876?
thanks,
Linda
By the way, was s/n 721300 also part of the same 2000 or 2200 gun shipment?
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