How easy is it to shoot a S&W revolver out of time?

[DirtyHairy]

Hi everyone,

Yesterday at an LGS range I rented a 686+ 5" 357 and boy did it shoot pretty sweet and I think I've come to the conclusion that I must have one.

This is all coming purely from curiosity. It seems that, just based on things I've read and heard over many years that with enough use, a Smith revolver's timing is a little more fragile and can suffer in a shorter amount of time than compared to other manufacturers equivalent product i.e. GP100 vs 686.

My question is, is this a thing of the past with the recent revolvers coming out of Smith (say over the last decade or so)?

Of course ANY revolver ever can have issues with enough use, and I'm not necessarily looking for a comparison against other makers.

More curious into your first or second hand experience, have you shot your revolver out of time? If so, what did it take, was it due to high round count, or maybe a heavy diet of near max pressure loads? Maybe you have one with 20k+ rounds and still going strong?

Thanks for your input! As a side comment on an unrelated note, the model I think I'd like to get is the 7" 686+ 3-5-7, so if you have experience with this one please share! Bonus if you have pics of the gun or a target you're proud of.

Have a great day!

 

[WR Moore]

The phrase "out of time" covers a great many possibilities.

Let me say up front, out of the box, the GP 100 is very robust. However, refined it is not. Nor are you likely, absent $$$$$, to be able to change that. Also, the extractor rod didn't used to be full length. If certainty of extraction/ejection of full power magnum loads may be required, this might not be your best bet.

That said, our issue revolvers were 681s (4 inch L frame with fixed sights). Given a steady, mandated diet of full house Federal 125 gr .357 loads, they would eventually (unknown mulitple of thousands of rounds) "shoot loose". The term refers to cylinder endplay and carryup (cylinder indexing). This also included some out and out abuse by idiots. Despite this, they were still functional.

We had armorers to replace cylinder stops, hands and springs, which was often enough to return them to specification. Those beyond that went back to the factory.

The big factors in that wear was continual high round count use of full power magnum ammo and the speed at which we had to fire in many of our training and qualification sessions. This isn't likely to be what you'll be doing recreationally or in some degree of training or gun games.

Example: a couple of years ago, I bought a used model 64-5 that obviously had been used/abused in some type of competition and "customized" by someone who thought they knew what they were doing. However, the basic foundation was there. Wear items replaced to bring it back to specs were the cylinder stop and spring, and hand. Items that had to be replaced due to attention from Bubba were: locking bolt and spring, extractor rod and hammer (botched conversion to double action only which also interfered with the double action hammer travel and the cylinder being locked before the hammer started to fall), hammer/main spring and trigger return/rebound spring (after market trash).

Can't say anything about present production. I'm not real sure squeezing 7 rounds into the L frame cylinder is a good long term thing. Maybe others here can comment on those issues. Certainly there will be some model specific parts in use.

Hope that give you the basic information you need.

 

[mtgianni]

IME, fast double action shooting wears them much faster than slow determined firing. I define slow as one shot per two seconds.

 

[DirtyHairy]

The phrase "out of time" covers a great many possibilities.

Let me say up front, out of the box, the GP 100 is very robust. However, refined it is not. Nor are you likely, absent $$$$$, to be able to change that. Also, the extractor rod didn't used to be full length. If certainty of extraction/ejection of full power magnum loads may be required, this might not be your best bet.

That said, our issue revolvers were 681s (4 inch L frame with fixed sights). Given a steady, mandated diet of full house Federal 125 gr .357 loads, they would eventually (unknown mulitple of thousands of rounds) "shoot loose". The term refers to cylinder endplay and carryup (cylinder indexing). This also included some out and out abuse by idiots. Despite this, they were still functional.

We had armorers to replace cylinder stops, hands and springs, which was often enough to return them to specification. Those beyond that went back to the factory.

The big factors in that wear was continual high round count use of full power magnum ammo and the speed at which we had to fire in many of our training and qualification sessions. This isn't likely to be what you'll be doing recreationally or in some degree of training or gun games.

Example: a couple of years ago, I bought a used model 64-5 that obviously had been used/abused in some type of competition and "customized" by someone who thought they knew what they were doing. However, the basic foundation was there. Wear items replaced to bring it back to specs were the cylinder stop and spring, and hand. Items that had to be replaced due to attention from Bubba were: locking bolt and spring, extractor rod and hammer (botched conversion to double action only which also interfered with the double action hammer travel and the cylinder being locked before the hammer started to fall), hammer/main spring and trigger return/rebound spring (after market trash).

Hope that give you the basic information you need.

Thanks for the insight. The purpose of the revolver I am interested in would be ideally for things like ringing gongs at 50+yards, and taking deer within that range (in my state, where I hunt, we must use straight walled cartridge). With this, I'd probably be using loads in the Northern hemisphere of pressure/power, so it would not be babied, but I also wouldn't be shooting hundreds upon hundreds of magnum loads in a single outing....

The reason for my questioning is say 10 years down the road of doing this, should I expect to eventually experience timing issues and if so at what point?

 

[Rpg]

Seems like the 7 shot 357’s are more likely to display timing issues than the 6 shot versions.

 

[stansdds]

I think you would have to do a whole lot of shooting 357 Magnums to get a S&W or Ruger 357 to go out of time. Most of us will not shoot enough in our lifetimes to wear down the hand and/or ratchet.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Snapping the cylinder closed a la' television and movie "heroes" doesn't do them any good either.

 

[Norton 750]

Anyone that wears out a Smith and Wesson by shooting it and not thru abuse probably is lucky enough to have parents that own an ammunition plant.

This is not a concern with typical shooters. I am 58, got my first handgun around ten years old and have never "worn out" a firearm. My .38 to .357 ratio is probably ten to one, but even with a steady diet of light bullet .357 Magnum loads, the most abusive combination on revolvers, you can expect to pass your revolver on to your heirs in perfect working order.

 

[Protocall_Design]

Revolvers need to be maintained like any other mechanical device. Assuming all is right in the beginning, (often it isn't), you can go several thousand rounds before needing anything tuned up. The most common things that need attention are endshake and ratchet wear.

Endshake is fixed by stretching the crane or adding shim washers. Ratchet wear is fixed by installing a wider hand, usually .001 or .002 wider.

 

[WR Moore]

Thanks for the insight. The purpose of the revolver I am interested in would be ideally for things like ringing gongs at 50+yards, and taking deer within that range (in my state, where I hunt, we must use straight walled cartridge). With this, I'd probably be using loads in the Northern hemisphere of pressure/power, so it would not be babied, but I also wouldn't be shooting hundreds upon hundreds of magnum loads in a single outing....

OK, the most important part of ethical hunting-and much other shooting- is shot placement. Not f/s, energy or latest and sexiest bullet design. While you want adequate power, max loads may not give you the best possible accuracy. If all you're doing is ringing steel, you don't need max loads.

Frankly, when I used a handgun to hunt deer, I used .44 Magnum handloads running somwhat under factory loads with a factory bullet purchased separately. The typical 100 yard group with them was half the size of a factory ammo group. BTW, I think my furthest shot was about 50 yards. The various deer didn't seem to notice the missing foot seconds/energy. I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't hunt deer with a .357, but choose your ammo and shots wisely.

The reason for my questioning is say 10 years down the road of doing this, should I expect to eventually experience timing issues and if so at what point?

Not knowing the condition of the gun when new, what ammo you use and your usage, I'm not gonna make any blind guess as to when you may, or may not, experience carryup and/or endshake issues. Production hands vary in width within a given range. Many assemblers at any/all plants would be inclined to go with the first hand that fits and provides adequate lockup. A thousand or so rounds down the road, after things wear in and parts get burnished, a wider hand might be the better fit.

 

[pasound]

The only Smiths I ever saw worn out after a few thousand rounds were early 617's with aluminum parts, including the cylinder. I have a newer 617, stainless 2019 model, with several thousand rounds through it (my most used target and plinker revolver), and just now feels broken in.

 

[muddocktor]

The first pistol I ever bought when I turned 18 was a 5" model 27-2 in 1974. I finally needed to send it off to S&W around 2015 or so after roughly 30K rounds through it and that included a diet of a lot of max load 357 rounds. They ended up turning the barrel a round to get rid of fairly severe erosion at the forcing cone area and b/c gap along with a hair of end shake. Besides turning the barrel, they also replaced the cylinder stop and I think they installed a new hand. Not bad for the amount of rounds through it and the abuse I gave it. I wasn't nearly as careful back in the day about shooting overpressured ammo. Heck, I remembering buying some PMC ammo back when they first started selling it around the house and a few boxes were so overpressured I had to use the sole of my boot on the ejector rod to get them out of the chambers. No way I would run more than 1 cylinder of that stuff nowadays; would have stopped shooting after trying to dump the first set of empties.

 

[DirtyHairy]

OK, the most important part of ethical hunting-and much other shooting- is shot placement. Not f/s, energy or latest and sexiest bullet design. While you want adequate power, max loads may not give you the best possible accuracy. If all you're doing is ringing steel, you don't need max loads.

Frankly, when I used a handgun to hunt deer, I used .44 Magnum handloads running somwhat under factory loads with a factory bullet purchased separately. The typical 100 yard group with them was half the size of a factory ammo group. BTW, I think my furthest shot was about 50 yards. The various deer didn't seem to notice the missing foot seconds/energy. I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't hunt deer with a .357, but choose your ammo and shots wisely.



Not knowing the condition of the gun when new, what ammo you use and your usage, I'm not gonna make any blind guess as to when you may, or may not, experience carryup and/or endshake issues. Production hands vary in width within a given range. Many assemblers at any/all plants would be inclined to go with the first hand that fits and provides adequate lockup. A thousand or so rounds down the road, after things wear in and parts get burnished, a wider hand might be the better fit.

I'm not disagreeing with your comments on ammo. However two points should be noted:
1. Shot placement of course trumps all, but most off the shelf hunting loads, which is what I use, tends to be loaded on the hotter side. I have found a 158gr "big bore" Winchester loads that I can shoot well. They are advertised at I think 1440 FPS and while I haven't chronod them yet, I find the particular gun shoots maybe 50-100FPS lower than advertised, so thats still pretty hot for a 158 gr load.

2. For long range shooting, assuming I can find a load that works, I always go for the lighter, faster rounds to eliminate holdover across various distances. I once chronod some Hornady American Gunner XTPs which were approaching 1700 FPS out of a 6'' barrel.

But to your point, outside of these two exceptions a heavy slow moving projectile would probably be optimal for most conditions i.e. plinking.

 

[DirtyHairy]

Seems like the 7 shot 357’s are more likely to display timing issues than the 6 shot versions.

You know I’ve actually heard that as well, at least once before
Any ideas why?

 

[Old cop]

When we traded our old blued revolvers for stainless models a lot were out of time and had to be repaired by our range officers.

 

[Dave686]

The reason for my questioning is say 10 years down the road of doing this, should I expect to eventually experience timing issues and if so at what point?

No. I’ve been shooting Smith & Wesson revolvers for over 50 years. Owned over 100 and shot in competition for years. I know it can happen, but I’ve never seen a Smith & Wesson revolver out of time. However, I have never owned a 7 shot version, never wanted one.

The K or l frames or the Ruger GP100 should all do what you want without any problems.

 

[UncleEd]

I wonder what Jerry Miculek's answer would be.

Even with heavy springs, I have to believe he puts
more stress on a revolver in a week's practice than
ordinary folks do in 50 years.

 

[dobegrant]

I have need using a 4” 686 for hunting, shooting, ICORE matches for 37 years, still tight as when I got it.

 

[mtgianni]

I shot a Model 14 that was not new to me where it needed timing. Most use was semi-wadcutters shot at a rapid pace, as soon as you could get on target take the trigger the last 1/8th inch. It wasn't expensive to have a good smith replace the hand & ratchet and tighten things up.

 

[DETROIT]

In our state academy if Fl, we had revolvers with 20,000 + rounds on them. Their only maintenance was cleaning, springs and an occasional hand replacement.

My Model 1926 is almost 100 years old and lock up is solid.

What I’m trying to say is, I would not be concerned with shooting a revolver to failure.