How fast can a 357 mag, 158gr LSWC be loaded to?

[Rule3]

How fast can you push a 158 gr lswc, no gas check before problems occur such as leading?
I want to load some at the max safe velocity without having to go to a fmj bullet.
Which brings up another question. Anyone know where to find some fmj bullets or jhp??

 

[valkyriekl]

In my young reloading career (1-month) I've heard 900-1100fps before you start having problems with leading, regardless of caliber, depending on the hardness of the alloy in the bullet: harder = faster.

 

[fredj338]

With the right alloy, lube & bore size, 1400fps is not out of the question (6" bbl.). Harder alloy usually offers better results @ high vel. but size & lube are just as important. For JHP, try MG; https://secure3.mooseweb.com/montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.tpl or Roze; http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZBJ-38S or T&T; http://216.15.64.227/

 

[Erich]

I've gone 1400 fps in handguns with TVB hardcasts w/o leading (I've gotten leading with them over 1500 fps in a carbine after shooting about 50). Powder matters - Lil' Gun is good for this - as does lube and, of course, bullet composition. I would probably think about gas checks for anything over 1500 fps, but that's just me.

 

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I agree with Erich. I've gone to 1400 without any problems, using TVB 158 LSWCs.

Those who repeat the "1000 fps is the limit for lead bullets" are either just repeating what they've heard or they're full of crap.

 

[Skip Sackett]

This subject came up just the other day around myplace;

only in a different caliber.

I have driven my H&G #290BB to velocities over 1500fps from my handguns and near 1700fps from a carbine, all without leading.

Powder selection is critical to achieve this. I spoke with Hodgdon and wanted a load for Lil' Gun or Longshot for this purpose. The technician stated that neither were good choices because they would burn away the base of the bullet in the carbine. Handgun yes, rifle no.

He suggested a load of TiteGroup as the quick burn powder would be better in this application.

I also called/emailed Accurate Arms. The reply I got was very encouraging. I asked about AA#9 burning away the base of a lead bullet in the carbine and was told that that wouldn't happen with that powder. I like the Accurate Arms powders as they meter better than most and provide consistent numbers across the chronograph. I was told to use any of the handgun recipes from the newer manual and they would be fine in the carbine.

 

[mkk41]

Hardness is only part of it. Bullets must be cast from the proper alloy too. Too much tin , or antimony , or zinc(bad) can make a bullet hard , but not 'good'. Good linotype is probably the best for high velocity and Lyman recommends it , especially for rifle bullets. My caster makes my magnum bullets using 1/2 linotype , 1/2 wheelweights* and water-quenches them. I don't have a chrono , but it's a good bet they're going fast.

* Keep in mind that wheelweights are an unspecific alloy. Many states have now mandated lead-free wheelweights. These are mostly tin , zinc and powdered tungsten. Just a few will ruin an otherwise good pot of alloy and powdered tungsten will ruin your barrel.

 

[Skip Sackett]

We need to get real folks!

OK, Let's get real. If and I say "IF" you live in one of the bastions for liberalism, you need to worry about other things going on rather than your wheel weights being outlawed!

I found this on the http://www.leadfreewheels.org/ website. If you live in one of these states, MOVE! It would be like living in Illinois or Wisconsin for me, not going to happen. A state that doesn't recognize the need of a citizen to arm themselves lawfully doesn't need nor want my presence! A mutual agreement would ensue, I'd move. By the time my state outlaws lead wheel weights there would be so many other liberties that they would have taken away by then that this would be an insignificant matter, I'd already would have moved to another state!

Look, the law in Washington doesn't take effect until 2011. When it does take effect, how many lead wheel weights will be available via scrap yards and such? What will the tire companies do with their current stock of lead wheel weights?

Instead of cowering in fear of the future, why not make a plan to capitalize on the upcoming deadline. Go to the tire stores and set up agreements to take their stock of wheel weights when the law takes effect.

Come on people, think!
"Maine Bans Lead Weights

On May 12 Maine became the second state to enact a comprehensive ban on lead weights. LD 986 bans installation of lead (and mercury) weights January 1, 2010.
Washington State Bans Lead Wheel Weights

On April 28th Washington State Governor Chris Gregoire signed into law the first comprehensive ban on the use of lead wheel weights in North America. The legislation, HB 1030, requires the use of lead free wheel weights starting on January 1, 2011. Download the bill. Read about the law in the Spokesman-Review.

Other Pending 2009 Legislation
California - Senate Bill 763 Download
Requirements: Bans installation of lead weights upon passage
Iowa - House File 384 Download
Requirements: Prohibits installation of lead weights July 2010
Maine - LD 986 Download
Requirements: Bans installation of lead (and mercury) weights January 1, 2010
Maryland - House Bill 763 Download
Requirements: Bans installation of lead weights January 2011 State for Fleet Vehicles; January 1, 2012 for Used Vehicles; January 1, 2013 for New Vehicles
Vermont - Act 193 Enacted into Law June 7, 2008 Download
Requirments: Bans installation of lead weights on Vermont state fleet vehicles January 1, 2010; September 1, 2011 for new vehicles "

 

[Rule3]

Wisconsin is the California of the mid west. Especially Madison and Dane County.
We will save the planet and ban wheel weights, lead shot and fishing weights but do not worry about all the imported crap from China containing lead and poisoning our children.

Anyway, back on my question. So it seems I can push my lead bullets as fast or faster than any of the plated (Rainer, Berrys) bullets.

Lee Modern 2nd has some load data using 2400 and W- 296, so I can load a true magnum load with hard cast lead???

 

[Erich]

Yes.

 

[flash60601]

Hardness is only part of it. Bullets must be cast from the proper alloy too. Too much tin , or antimony , or zinc(bad) can make a bullet hard , but not 'good'. Good linotype is probably the best for high velocity and Lyman recommends it , especially for rifle bullets. My caster makes my magnum bullets using 1/2 linotype , 1/2 wheelweights* and water-quenches them. I don't have a chrono , but it's a good bet they're going fast.

Annealing of lead bullets is said to increase their hardness even more. I have not tried this, but I would be interested to hear from anyone who has.

Fash

 

[Cary]

Annealing of lead bullets is said to increase their hardness even more. I have not tried this, but I would be interested to hear from anyone who has.

Fash

I've been heat treating my cast bullets for several years now. I heat them to 500 degrees F for 30 minutes and then water quench them. I found from hardness testing that it raises the BHN from around 14 to over 20. I shoot my 357 mag cast bullets using H110 and 2400 as my powder of choice. These bullets are cast from WW material.
Cary

 

[Skip Sackett]

Make your own bullets, dude!

I can load a true magnum load with hard cast lead???

Most certainly. Remember ALL of the oldtimers developed their magnum loads with cast bullets. Almost all of them were softer than what the current "experts" say is required.

16lbs lead to 1lb tin. A real hard bullet in Elmer's mind was one that was made from an alloy of 10lbs to 1lb tin.

Now, I'm not sure of the BHN of those alloys but I can tell you this: It's nowhere near the 22BHN to 30BHN espoused by some today.

If you can find bullets from 12BHN to 18BHN that are sized correctly for your firearm you will be good to go.

Since you don't cast for yourself, please get in contact with Jessie @ www.tennesseevalleybullets.com. He can get you just what you need.
(Then you need to get set up to cst for yourself! You will never have to ask this kind of question again! )

 

[K96771]

Missouri Bullet Company makes a 158 with a BHN of 18. I haven't pushed them to the max, but it supposedly can do jacketed-like loads. They're very reasonably priced too.

http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=10

 

[Paul5388]

I clocked a few loads today from my new .45 Colt 20" carbine. Using the 270 gr bullet (50% clip-on WWs and 50% stick-on WWs) I've posted in several places. Using 21 gr of Lil'Gun I clocked 1620 fps MV with 1575 ft lbs of energy. There was absolutely no leading at that velocity, regardless of what Hodgdon says.

I've also shot 358429s at 1750 fps (.38 Specials) with the same soft alloy and again, I didn't get any leading.

Both bullets are plain based LSWC, but they fit the barrels and are soft enough to obturate properly.

The 358429 clocks at about 1420 fps out of my 6" M28-2 using 15.0 gr of Alliant 2400.

 

[Rule3]

The bullets I have are listed at 20 bhn so they should be OK.

And you should see the last guy that called me DUDE!

 

[Skip Sackett]

How is accuracy though?

.45 Colt 20" carbine.

Paul, how is that cannon doing for accuracy? I had a friend that had terrible trouble with his. He finally traded it off and got a 44Mag carbine.

I have had problems with accuracy when hot rodding lead bullets in longer barrels. Even if the lead came out easily, my accuracy suffered because the base of the bullet had "burnt" off. How is your accuracy?

 

[mnhntr]

I loaded some Magnus and Oregon trail LCSWC 158gr with Hodgdons Tightgroup and Accurate #5 powders and was pushing them just over 1100fps with the A#5. I did not have leading problems, and would not hesitate to go a little faster but I think you will be better off staying under the 1500fps depending on the bullet.

 

[n4zov]

I cast Keith style semi wadcutters out of Linotype, and I can drive it as fast as the .357 can be pushed at safe pressures and it is at least as accurate as any jacketed bullet I have used. Unfortunately Linotype is getting harder to find and it is expensive when available.

 

[Spotteddog]

Yup,
You can do it easily following the wise advice above. As can be done with .44 Magnum too.
(BTW Skip, governor Christine Gregoire (Wa.) wouldn't allow her state EPA to do that! After all, her state EPA sent me an E mail pre-election to say that they had NO intentions of doing so, after I enquired about it?)