HR218 time again

[oink]

Warning, I got windy and it's all just yacking.

Did my H.R.218 today. I qualified with a G19 MOS w Vortex Venom for semi-auto. My gun functioned fine and I qualified without issue. However I must admit I'm still not as competent as I would like to be with the red dot. If ammo ever gets more available I'll get up to speed. I then qualified with revolver. I was going to use my 6" 686 as it was still dirty from I won't say when, but it has a patridge front sight and it's rainy today and I could easily see the sight snagging and ripping my plastic raincoat. So I used my 4" 686. I hadn't shot it in awhile either (but it was clean) and I was reminded just how much I still like a good wheel gun and how much better I can still shoot one. I'm embarrassed to admit I did manage to throw one round out. There's no excuse with that gun.

Many semi-autos are just so much easier to carry concealed, especially in casual FL clothes. That's why I usually carry one. Lately an early XDs in .45.

Anyhow, when I qualified with the wheel gun I had other old guys shooting Glocks on each side of me. One was a 23. I've had one for years, an early Gen 2 and it's always been golden. The other old guy had a 36. While I've found Glocks to be extremely reliable for me, both of the Glocks next to me malfunctioned at least once. The one on the left malfunctioned several times but the shooter was able to clear and continue each time. The shooter on my right may have only had one malfunction but he required help from the range officer to continue. Come to think of it a third guy had a malfunction with a semi-auto but he wasn't next to me and I didn't even notice what he was shooting, other than being a semi-auto.

That doesn't bode well for semi-autos, at least for Glocks but I've had Glocks since the early Gen 2s and they've always been golden for me. I also have no idea of the cause of the malfunctions as it wasn't my business. I still like my Glocks. However, I was trained as a revolver shooter and carried one for many years. I'm comfortable with them. I would still feel very comfortable with a good duty revolver on road patrol if it was something I was still doing, which thankfully it isn't. However, now days I'd probably carry more ammo.

Now if I go out tonight it will probably be the XDs that I stick in my belt. It's just too easy to carry. But in my heart I still know a real gun is a wheel gun

 

[Doug M.]

The 22/23 have long had a reputation for inconsistent reliability. Several agencies have bought and returned them due to problems, including a friend's. If one wants a .40, the M&P is a far better platform.

Red dots: if one is of a certain age, the RDS is a real good thing. However, let's say that people of that age are often trained in a very hard core Gunsite "front sight focus/flash sight picture". I was; one had to be a Gunsite Rangemaster to be an FI at my academy. That worked real well for me as a younger shooter with flexible if heavily corrected eyes. With the grip angle of a Glock and the RDS being what seems like a small distance above the slide, I had trouble with presentations and rapid dot acquisition, even with w/a few tricks to make things better. The research I have found indicates that it takes about 5000 presentations to overcome the old training. The good news for me was that my M&P Shield with RDS and 4" barrel was enough better ergonomically to really make a difference. I have heard from others that this is pretty common, but the human animal makes a lousy interchangeable lab rat, so YMMV.

 

[sigp220.45]

I did my LEOSA qual in September. I used a Model 13 which was the only revolver that day except for a guy with a 6" 686 in some kind of Robocop thigh holster. I was surprised that even the creakiest of geezers were using semi-autos, a mix of Glocks and 365s, with the occasional Beretta 92 thrown in. We didn't get through one stage without some version of WHAT IN TARNATION! STUPID GUN! followed by a young deputy hustling over to help. It can get scary. I do my thing, get my papers signed, and head for the hills.

 

[rbmac52]

I did my annual qualification yesterday using my trusty Beretta 92FS. I carried that gun most of my career and have never ever had a malfunction of any kind.

I normally carry a j-frame .38 special for comfort and concealability, but that Beretta is my all time favorite full size semi-auto.

The guy who does my qualification is an old guy that has been in law enforcement firearms training for decades. He's got to be close to 80 years old. I go out to his ranch and we shoot in his backyard. Just me and him. I really like that arrangement.

 

[oink]

The 22/23 have long had a reputation for inconsistent reliability. Several agencies have bought and returned them due to problems, including a friend's. If one wants a .40, the M&P is a far better platform.

Well, remember the other guy had a G36. The 3rd guy I don't know what he had. I've had my G23 since very soon after the gen 2 Glocks came out. It has never malfunctioned. Not once! (knock wood) It's been shot a lot. It was my off duty for quite a few years. It replaced my 669 for that purpose although the 669 remained my duty BU. The 669 was extremely reliable also.

Red dots: if one is of a certain age, the RDS is a real good thing. However, let's say that people of that age are often trained in a very hard core Gunsite "front sight focus/flash sight picture". I was; ......, I had trouble with presentations and rapid dot acquisition, ..... The research I have found indicates that it takes about 5000 presentations to overcome the old training....

Yeah, the red dot is contrary to my original training and years of experience. and dot acquisition is an issue. I expect 5000 presentations would probably do the trick.
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......I was surprised that even the creakiest of geezers were using semi-autos,.....We didn't get through one stage without some version of WHAT IN TARNATION! STUPID GUN!......It can get scary. I do my thing, get my papers signed, and head for the hills.

Yeah, semi-autos may not be the best idea for everyone. While there were an amazing amount of stoppages I don't recall that being the case at my previous qualifications, but then I guess I'm an old geezer too so I may have forgotten. I wouldn't say it was scary but it was a bit disturbing. I don't rush off because I like to BS a bit and learn what's going on at the department these days (hear the latest gossip).
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.....The guy who does my qualification is an old guy....... I go out to his ranch and we shoot in his backyard. Just me and him. I really like that arrangement.

I like the social aspect of doing it at the Dept's range but I'm sure the ranch is fun.

 

[rbmac52]

I have in years past gone to the local PD range to do my annual qualification. The PD does not schedule a time for multiple shooters, rather they take them one at a time as they come. I can walk in to the range and if there isn't some kind of in-service training going on, the rangemaster just grabs a target and we go out to the pistol range and have at it

I get the social aspect of interacting with fellow retirees, but I also like the one-on-one thing as well. No distractions or having to deal with the misfires or malfunctions somewhere on the line.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The 22/23 have long had a reputation for inconsistent reliability. Several agencies have bought and returned them due to problems, including a friend's. If one wants a .40, the M&P is a far better platform. . .

Coming from a person who worked for two successive agencies, the first a local PD and the second a federal LEA that switched from revolvers to Glock 22/23's in the late 80's and mid 90's, your claim is not founded in fact. The early, and I mean very early Glocks were problematic because the 9mm locking block was not ready for .40 S&W, and they broke. That problem was quickly fixed with the locking block pin, and they've been trouble free ever since.

I went to Glock revolver to Glock transition instructor school twice, two weeks at a time eight years apart, and Glock armorer class, admittedly a one day experience, annually, from about 1991 until 2015. I know of that which I speak to . . .

 

[Doug M.]

The old 10-8 forums, now defunct, had a long string on the flaws with that platform. Chuck Haggard, a member who does not show up here much, has a pretty in-depth knowledge of the problems. A very good friend's agency bought them and regretted it - they could not even finish testing them for issue due to the problems.

Some places had decent luck with them; some did not. I had one FBI agent in a class who swore by his; an agent in another class swore about it (and I saw it malf on the regular during our 3 day class). They were spectacularly awful in agencies that had lights on them.

 

[Old Corp]

Always enjoy my LEOSA quals, or 'AARP Range Day' as I call them.

Local Instructor that likes to schedule small groups of retirees and it's always an eclectic mix. You'll hear everything from old Bronx accents to Texas twangs to my native Southern drawl.

Instructor is easy going. The NC card only has listings for four (4) handguns, and if you wanna do all four, he's fine with that.

It would make MUCH more sense just to have check-offs for revolver or semi-auto or both, but we don't have that option.
The guns are not even ID'ed by S/N, just make, model and caliber.
Seems ridiculous.
Mine's due in February - like birthdays it seems to come along quite frequently.

I'm wondering when they'll adopt the 'Walker Stage of Fire', where the shooter uses his walker in barricade position.

 

[CH4]

Used a G26 in September for my annual LEOSA qual. Worked like a champ, even with Winchester steel cased ammo.

 

[xtrtsqrt11]

Coming from a person who worked for two successive agencies, the first a local PD and the second a federal LEA that switched from revolvers to Glock 22/23's in the late 80's and mid 90's, your claim is not founded in fact. The early, and I mean very early Glocks were problematic because the 9mm locking block was not ready for .40 S&W, and they broke. That problem was quickly fixed with the locking block pin, and they've been trouble free ever since.

I went to Glock revolver to Glock transition instructor school twice, two weeks at a time eight years apart, and Glock armorer class, admittedly a one day experience, annually, from about 1991 until 2015. I know of that which I speak to . . .

...and if you don't try to hang a light on those G22/23s without the magazine spring upgrade...
I didn't go to as many armorer courses but I did twice that my department sent me to go to. Early to mid 2000s.

 

[lawandorder]

Had my Quals Friday morning, shot a new (used) revolver that I had not fired. The gun is a 3 inch model 64 that was customized by Wilson Combat over in Berryville, Arkansas.

They produced several S&Ws in the late 90s. Most of them were 2&1/2 model 66s. This is the only 64 I have ever heard of that they worked on.

Shooting it was pretty near revolver perfection. It did its job beyond any expectations. I didn't , I dropped 2 rounds both from 15 yard line, my fault. Maybe it was the 32 degree chill.

Good day, shooting with old Friends then having catfish in a restaurant on the bank of the White river..

 

[armadillo]

We did our annual qualification today. We had the biggest turnout ever with about 40 shooters. There were several other retired agents and officers who showed up just to see old friends and enjoy the bar-b-q afterward.

 

[Miami_JBT]

My LEOSA expired and I need to requal. Not sure what I'm going to take. Thinking about using my no dash Model 586 and my Gen 2 G17.

As for the G22, I carried both a Gen 3 and Gen 4. Never had issues and have a personally owned Gen 3 G24 and G35 plus a Gen 4 G22 and G27. They all work great.