Hydraulic Buffer?

[Maddmax]

I agree with Flyer91, I can find no fault in what he had to say but I also think that a moving part like the piston in the AR-restor can absorb some of that recoil and by damping can very conceivably reduce felt recoil. I dont think it is necessary to reduce the bolt going homes force because for proper shooting you are holding tight to your shoulder anyway.

It was a good and interesting read. I also agree with your thoughts on the AR-restor and by damping can very conceivably reduce felt recoil. It's easy enough to feel "felt recoil" just changing from a stock buffer to heavier buffer,not to mention different spring poundage's and all the different verities between the two. The problem is finding the right combination to fully cycle the BCG so it grabs the next round and locks back into battery for the next shot,but also doesn't knock you off the shooting bench when you squeeze off that next round.

It's like learning to shoot a shotgun when we were kids. You always held it tight to your shoulder. Then you also learned,the heavier the shotgun was,the less felt recoil because of the weight of the over-all weapon compaired to a much lighter weapon.

 

[flyer91]

No ....... not actually a potato po-ta-to thing at all (although it can certainly appear that way).

Here's some things to consider when you are trying to tune your rifle for best performance.

There are 3 distinct and separate events that occur in time, and that cause the rifle to move about .... both rearward 'and' forward.

First is a somewhat violent reward movement called recoil, and it's caused by the round going off and the bullet moving away at high energy (equal but opposite reaction).
The next is also a rearward movement that is 'after' the recoil and caused by the action of the BCG and buffer reaching the end of their travel which contributes greatly to muzzle lift.
The third is a forward movement caused when the BCG, and buffer movement is suddenly stopped when the spring pushes the bolt home and causes the muzzle to drop.

You can see the muzzle drop by holding your rifle as absolutely tight as you can with the bolt locked back then have a buddy release the bolt while you try to hold on target as it slams home.
That ...... is an example of a potato ..... but absolutely not a po-ta-to, and requires a whole different approach than just going to a heavier buffer and/or spring.
If you 'do' go to a heavier buffer and or spring it will actually increase the muzzle drop.
Keep in mind that in the above experiement, this is with no recoil happening at all, but ..... it certainly does happen everytime that there is any recoil ........ unless you have the gas system shut off (no cycling) by the use an adjustabe/switching gas block.
So ....... potato, tomato, and a watermellon just for fun.

Really though, to get the best performance you need to sort out exactly what's happening, comprehend why, then tweak the part/s that are causing your rifle to move in a given direction at a given time.
For example ...... to reduce muzzle flip by going to different brake when your brake is already optimized and controling as much of the recoil, muzzle lift, and side push as it has effect over ..... and to expect that will have any effect to change any muzzle lift/drop that is being caused by the buffer reaching the end of it's rearward, or subsequent forward travel, will just cost you money ........ and might even reduce the effectiveness of what you already have.

By the same token ........ going to a heavier bolt carrier, spring, or different weight buffer to try and reduce the recoil of a heavier bullet, or more powerful charge, won't reduce it because it has no impact on the recoil.
What those changes 'will do' is help you tweak the effect of the higher gas charge and the subsequent harder/faster movement of the dampening system's impact on muzzle lift/drop.

Bottom line ........ it doesn't make any difference if it 'perceptibly' feels better ... only if it shoots better.

P.S. For those of you that might think the drop is not of any concern because by then "Elvis has left the building" that could be argued by the folks that give great credence to "after shot follow though" ..... but even more importantly, we are talking about ARs here, and that means semi-auto fire ..... and that means (at least to me) having a rifle tuned so that follow up shots are placed as fast and accurate as I (and my properly tuned rifle) can accomplish.

 

[Maddmax]

It is taders, but the energy stored in the rearward motion of the buffer is released in the forward motion and this hydraulic buffer lets it store more energy and by damping wastes off some of that energy.

So,by hand. The harder you push on the buffer,the more it buffers Right. So when the buffer lets off that stored energy,is it a fast release back ? I would think there's a fair amount of energy lost do to the reverse hyd flow and the recoil spring is doing all of the work at that point sending the BCG home while the hyd buffer recovers. The outside temperature would also play in with this some,depending on what fluid has been used in the buffer itself. I would guess it's light oil...

 

[JaPes]

All of this conjecture and home-brew hypothesis is exactly why I'm passing around the hydraulic buffer. Perception varies from person to person. You won't know exactly how the hydraulic buffer well feel in a rifle until you try one to judge it's worth.

~$90 for a part just to try out to satisfy curiosity is kind of nuts. I'm a nut.

 

[zip777]

I wish I could have tried out my magpul moe buttstock first! Now after a whopping 2 uses it will probably be replaced. Oh well back in the box and sold I guess. Someone will get a real good deal!

 

[Maddmax]

........ unless you have the gas system shut off (no cycling) by the use an adjustabe/switching gas block.
So ....... potato, tomato, and a watermellon just for fun.

Bottom line ........ it doesn't make any difference of it 'perceptibly' feels better ... only if it shoots better.

My eye balls are going to pop from all the reading. Thanks for the great info makes the gears grind and the wheels start moving.

Ok,with all said. Approaching this from the other end and if my info is correct. "Our" carbine style Modern Sporting Rifle's gas system is the shorter version of the full length gas system with out any modifacations other than just being shorter (?). So,can we modify "our" gas system's with an adjustable/switching gas block like on the piston driven Sporting Rifles and get by doing that ? Or are "we" headed in harms way. I have thought about the adjustable gas block and if it would be a conceivable idea for "our" gas operated carbine Sporting Rifles..... Could this be the watermellon patch ? I had Tadersalad with lunch

 

[Maddmax]

All of this conjecture and home-brew hypothesis is exactly why I'm passing around the hydraulic buffer. Perception varies from person to person. You won't know exactly how the hydraulic buffer well feel in a rifle until you try one to judge it's worth.

~$90 for a part just to try out to satisfy curiosity is kind of nuts. I'm a nut.

I figure it's all "us" nuts that get things to work or come up with a better mousetrap.

 

[Maddmax]

I wish I could have tried out my magpul moe buttstock first! Now after a whopping 2 uses it will probably be replaced. Oh well back in the box and sold I guess. Someone will get a real good deal!

You need to start a parts bin. It could come in handy later on when things get back to normal....

 

[flyer91]

All of this conjecture and home-brew hypothesis is exactly why I'm passing around the hydraulic buffer. Perception varies from person to person. You won't know exactly how the hydraulic buffer well feel in a rifle until you try one to judge it's worth.

~$90 for a part just to try out to satisfy curiosity is kind of nuts. I'm a nut.

I totally agree.
Experimenting (or using the empirical results of other's experiments) is how you find out what parts/tuning helps to mitigate the negative effects of the things that you can't change.

And depending on if your the WTS or WTB guy ..... it's either an unfortunate or fortunate ...... but nonetheless 'significant' reason for a "used - like new" market in the classifieds (unless you save the box and packaging ... then is just "New").

 

[flyer91]

My eye balls are going to pop from all the reading. Thanks for the great info makes the gears grind and the wheels start moving.

Ok,with all said. Approaching this from the other end and if my info is correct. "Our" carbine style Modern Sporting Rifle's gas system is the shorter version of the full length gas system with out any modifacations other than just being shorter (?). So,can we modify "our" gas system's with an adjustable/switching gas block like on the piston driven Sporting Rifles and get by doing that ? Or are "we" headed in harms way. I have thought about the adjustable gas block and if it would be a conceivable idea for "our" gas operated carbine Sporting Rifles..... Could this be the watermellon patch ? I had Tadersalad with lunch

Yup, JP sells an adjustable gas block at ~$80 and Noveske sells their Switchblock for about 3 times that.
But once again ....... it really depends on what you are trying to fix/accomplish for the type of shooting you do and load you use.
BTW: The JP comes in both steel (SS or carbon) and alluninum.
I'd stay away form alluminum.
The JP also has a rep for the gas adjustment set-screw being too loose. I fixed that on on my SAM-R by just going to a regular SHCS and added a coil spring behind it's head (like the idel screw on a carburetor).

The carbine has a carbine gas system of two different designs/lengths. One is the carbine (short system) and one is a mid length system.
Both use a carbine buffer system (standard spring and buffer weight of 3.2 oz.). The spring will change length slightly in a mil spec versus comercial tube.
The rifle has a longer gas system and a different buffer system.
For each the designers (supposedly) make the gas system's port "sized" for each length to properly cycle the weapon. BUT ..... they do that to meet the requirements of a broad range of uses for the weapon.

Enter the aftermarket range of accessories that will allow you to tune your rifle for a narrower range of general use, and/or even a more narrow range of specialized use.
For example ....... a full blown 3G race gun verses a bench match "space gun".
These two could not be any different from each other, and have extremely different uses, and as such ....... are built totally different ....... but are both still ARs.

 

[oneyeopn]

Ok I shot it today, although total recoil is not really reduced the initial shock of the recoil pulse is smoothed way out and it carries into the return stroke. It made the rifle feel less jarred in its recoil. As far as affecting accuracy I do not believe it made any change in that manner but my group was tighter after the installation of the AR-restor The laws of physics say it shouldnt do it but it does smooth out the recoil. I give it big yes and have put it on the need to get one list.
The first pic is with the stock buffer:

The Second is after I installed it. See it tightened up. There is also a 45acp and 9mm hole in the picture:

And this was the baseline with my Mini:

She shoots straight but loves my handloads way better than XM193..

 

[rootbrain]

No ....... not actually a potato po-ta-to thing at all (although it can certainly appear that way).

Here's some things to consider when you are trying to tune your rifle for best performance.

There are 3 distinct and separate events that occur in time, and that cause the rifle to move about .... both rearward 'and' forward.

First is a somewhat violent reward movement called recoil, and it's caused by the round going off and the bullet moving away at high energy (equal but opposite reaction).
The next is also a rearward movement that is 'after' the recoil and caused by the action of the BCG and buffer reaching the end of their travel which contributes greatly to muzzle lift.
The third is a forward movement caused when the BCG, and buffer movement is suddenly stopped when the spring pushes the bolt home and causes the muzzle to drop.

You can see the muzzle drop by holding your rifle as absolutely tight as you can with the bolt locked back then have a buddy release the bolt while you try to hold on target as it slams home.
That ...... is an example of a potato ..... but absolutely not a po-ta-to, and requires a whole different approach than just going to a heavier buffer and/or spring.
If you 'do' go to a heavier buffer and or spring it will actually increase the muzzle drop.
Keep in mind that in the above experiement, this is with no recoil happening at all, but ..... it certainly does happen everytime that there is any recoil ........ unless you have the gas system shut off (no cycling) by the use an adjustabe/switching gas block.
So ....... potato, tomato, and a watermellon just for fun.

Really though, to get the best performance you need to sort out exactly what's happening, comprehend why, then tweak the part/s that are causing your rifle to move in a given direction at a given time.
For example ...... to reduce muzzle flip by going to different brake when your brake is already optimized and controling as much of the recoil, muzzle lift, and side push as it has effect over ..... and to expect that will have any effect to change any muzzle lift/drop that is being caused by the buffer reaching the end of it's rearward, or subsequent forward travel, will just cost you money ........ and might even reduce the effectiveness of what you already have.

By the same token ........ going to a heavier bolt carrier, spring, or different weight buffer to try and reduce the recoil of a heavier bullet, or more powerful charge, won't reduce it because it has no impact on the recoil.
What those changes 'will do' is help you tweak the effect of the higher gas charge and the subsequent harder/faster movement of the dampening system's impact on muzzle lift/drop.

Bottom line ........ it doesn't make any difference if it 'perceptibly' feels better ... only if it shoots better.

P.S. For those of you that might think the drop is not of any concern because by then "Elvis has left the building" that could be argued by the folks that give great credence to "after shot follow though" ..... but even more importantly, we are talking about ARs here, and that means semi-auto fire ..... and that means (at least to me) having a rifle tuned so that follow up shots are placed as fast and accurate as I (and my properly tuned rifle) can accomplish.

I see where you are, and as a non-expert I can't dispute it really. But for me anyway, the Endine AR-Restor makes my 5.56 um, "better". Pretty subjective I know. But muzzle lift and felt recoil seem greatly improved. I know I'm shooting better, but it could be placebo effect I guess. But it's working.

It's not perfect however. There have been reports that locking the bolt back with the charging handle takes a bit more "determination". I have experienced it, but since I expect it, I have started handling the gun with that in mind when I need to.

I have not had any problem with the bolt not locking back on its own after the last round fired, as some have reported. It remains to be seen as to whether or not this thing can stand up for an extended period. Since I kept the stock buffer spring, I have put the stock buffer in my shooting bag and will leave it there until I know, or feel certain that the hydraulic buffer will withstand the abuse of many many rounds without failing.

 

[flyer91]

And when it's all done and said ... all that really counts is "does it help you hit what you are aiming at?"
If it does, then IMHO ...... money well spent.

As far longivity ....... I can handle something turning out to be a "consumable" (within reason). So even if it doesn't last forever ....... that can certainly be forgiven.

 

[Maddmax]

Yup, JP sells an adjustable gas block at ~$80 and Noveske sells their Switchblock for about 3 times that.
But once again ....... it really depends on what you are trying to fix/accomplish for the type of shooting you do and load you use.
BTW: The JP comes in both steel (SS or carbon) and alluninum.
I'd stay away form alluminum. It also has a rep for the gas adjustment set-screw being too loose. I fixed that on on my SAM-R by just going to a regular SHCS and added a coil spring behind it's head (like the idel screw on a carburetor).

The carbine has a carbine gas system of two different designs/lengths. One is the carbine (short system) and one is a mid length system.
Both use a carbine buffer system (standard spring and buffer weight of 3.2 oz.). The spring will change length slightly in a mil spec versus comercial tube.
The rifle has a longer gas system and a different buffer system.
For each the designers (supposedly) make the gas system's port "sized" for each length to properly cycle the weapon. BUT ..... they do that to meet the requirements of a broad range of uses for the weapon.

Enter the aftermarket range of accessories that will allow you to tune your rifle for a narrower range of general use, and/or even a more narrow range of specialized use.
For example ....... a full blown 3G race gun verses a bench match "space gun".
These two could not be any different from each other, and have extremely different uses, and as such ....... are built totally different ....... but are both still ARs.

Thank you for all the imput. I have an on-going project with a 20" RR upper and a CMMG lower. I have been toying with the idea of an adjustable gas block after seeing the SR556 and how it's adjustable gas block can be set for different situations. From what I saw in the new S&W catalog,they are coming out with a new piston driven Sporting Rifle soon if not already. I do have one on order from my LGS. I would like the RR to be that bench match "space gun". It would also be nice if I could get a S&W adjustable gas block for my T or Sport to "play" with. I always have liked/prefer OEM parts when possible. Now,back to my laboratory Thanks again for your imput.

 

[oneyeopn]

To try to explain what I felt today. Normally on the moderns sporting rifle, you pull the trigger and it fires the bullet, all in this tiny time frame the bolt in the rifle goes from zero to ninety miles an our Stops and eighty mile an hour the other way. The actions are felt with the rifle jumping or jolting and most of us feel the motion of the recoil upon firing. The AR-restor smoothed that initial shock and also the coming back into battery. It was way smoother than the stock buffer. It also changed the sound of the rifle. If I get a chance I will go tomorrow and chrony some rounds both ways. I definitely liked it.
It was funny, I ran the test before I shot the Mini 14 (for the first time this was a sacrifice)
I had one of my LEO nephews with me and I had him shoot also we tried it back and forth for about 80 rounds shooting 5 or 6 at a time. And we both liked it. The pics were the first two groups of the day then we just shot to see how it did. When I changed to the mini 14, with the Hydraulic Buffer the recoil was extremely similar.

 

[Maddmax]

To try to explain what I felt today. Normally on the moderns sporting rifle, you pull the trigger and it fires the bullet, all in this tiny time frame the bolt in the rifle goes from zero to ninety miles an our Stops and eighty mile an hour the other way. The actions are felt with the rifle jumping or jolting and most of us feel the motion of the recoil upon firing. The AR-restor smoothed that initial shock and also the coming back into battery. It was way smoother than the stock buffer. It also changed the sound of the rifle. If I get a chance I will go tomorrow and chrony some rounds both ways. I definitely liked it.
It was funny, I ran the test before I shot the Mini 14 (for the first time this was a sacrifice)
I had one of my LEO nephews with me and I had him shoot also we tried it back and forth for about 80 rounds shooting 5 or 6 at a time. And we both liked it. The pics were the first two groups of the day then we just shot to see how it did. When I changed to the mini 14, with the Hydraulic Buffer the recoil was extremely similar.

Nice to hear you liked it and some nice info too. I can handle smoother. So if I'm understanding you right. ...The mini has about the same felt recoil as the Sport with the buffer.

 

[flyer91]

Thank you for all the imput. I have an on-going project with a 20" RR upper and a CMMG lower. I have been toying with the idea of an adjustable gas block after seeing the SR556 and how it's adjustable gas block can be set for different situations. From what I saw in the new S&W catalog,they are coming out with a new piston driven Sporting Rifle soon if not already. I do have one on order from my LGS. I would like the RR to be that bench match "space gun". It would also be nice if I could get a S&W adjustable gas block for my T or Sport to "play" with. I always have liked/prefer OEM parts when possible. Now,back to my laboratory Thanks again for your imput.

Obviously I don't have any experience with the S&W piston system, but I would assume it's uses the same port valving as other gas blocks on piston systems.
I do have two Adams Arms piston uppers and their gas block is adjustable in 3 positions.
One is fully open, the next is partially closed and used for suppressed operation to prevent too much of the increased gas flow from cycling the weapon too fast/hard, and the last position is off for no cycling ..... and is used in situations that you don't want the action to cycle ... be it for noise elimination and/or to stop the movement that the cycling action imparts on the rifle (as discussed before).

The Noveske works very much the same way ........ it's also a 3 position device, and used for the same reasons (fully open for normal operation, partially closed for suppressed, and fully closed for no cycling and no 'action movement' jerking the rifle) but for use on direct gas impingement systems instead of on piston systems.

The JP provides an infinitely adjustable port from fully open to fully closed.
Although that's a plus because you can tune it by closing it to a point that the weapon starts to fail to cycle and then open it up again to the point that the weapon reliably cycles (this is basically how the instructions cover it's tuning) if using it to reduce the increased gas flow in a suppressed weapon, it's not as easy to find to your "suppressed and normal" setting postions again as the 3 position gas blocks ....... but is still something I prefer over the 3 position type.
If needed I could just remember that normal is X turns out from fully closed, and etc. ........

If getting a JP adjustable gas block I would pass on their aluminum unit for the obvious reasons, and try to get the clamp-on one, as opposed to the one that uses set screws because your barrel dimples will probably not line up with the set screws, and/or you will probably need to drill one or two more ..... which can be a bit tricky to get in the exact correct spot that doesn't end up partially blocking the port opening if the barrel and gas block holes don't line up perfectly because the set screw dimples are pulling it off the correct spot.

On the JP clamp-on it's easy to get it aligned properly by blowing compressed air (canned works) into the the muzzle (with the bolt closed) and listen for max flow out of the hole were the gas tube goes into the gas block at you rotate the block and tighten the block's clamp bolts.
Although the clamp-on is a bit more bulky ..... it's also friggen bullet proof ..... no pun intended!!

Just remember the Allen head screw and spring trick, to replace the goofy loose set screw ..... that's actually the gas valve.
I don't know why they made it so loose, but the fix works very well ...... and actually provides a small knob of sorts that allows you to turn the screw-head by hand, so you 'can' tune it without tools.

 

[oneyeopn]

Nice to hear you liked it and some nice info too. I can handle smoother. So if I'm understanding you right. ...The mini has about the same felt recoil as the Sport with the buffer.

Yes and for some reason the Mini's felt recoil, weighing about the same as My Sport, maybe a little lighter in my case, is smoother than the Sports. Cant explain it, dont know why Yet!! I will figure it out. The Sport will still be shot more than the Mini. Due to the ammo situation, the mini will be shot enough to stay proficient (once I get done taking it back to factory style) but wont be my primary varmint gun.

 

[flyer91]

One last thing with respect to buffers systems and increasing the spring rate and buffer weight, etc.
There are well documented reasons for people going from carbine length gas system, to a mid length gas system barrels.
Although many of these reasons are certainly open for debate, there are still definite clues/insight in these debates as to how the gas and buffer systems work in an AR.
If you study those clues, and ponder what and why the different length gas systems do with the same buffer system, you will see hints as to what increasing/decreasing the BCG and buffer weight, and the spring rates can do to the different induced movements of the weapon after it's fired.
But because this is a lengthy and somewhat nebulous topic, requiring even 'more' words (and debate) I wanted to stick to things you can easily do to see for yourself ..... like trying to hold you weapon on target while the bolt release is pressed and the BCG slams home (just tape a laser pointer to the barrel with it unloaded. Heck .... even lock the weapon in a vise and look at the dot drop on a wall when the BGC slams home).
And turning off the gas system if you have a piston or a adjustable gas block (or get 'safely' creative yourself) to stop the action from cycling, and take a few shots in single shot mode.
Then google "Artillery Hold" ....... and ponder a bit more.

As far as springs and buffers of any type, there is more to it than just their weight and strength when compared to what you are wanting your weapon to do.
If when checking to see what you have accomplished by doing any swap of these parts, and your 'standard deviation of shot placement for an aggregate of shots' demonstrates an improvement in grouping 'and' that is the only thing you are concerned with (just grouping, and not how fast the shots were fired) then you have accomplished what you set out to do ....... irrespective of your understanding the dynamics of why, or not.
It just doesn't matter at that point, it works and you are golden!

But ..... if the same swaps cause you to lose your standard deviation "at speed" of aggregate shot placement, then you haven't done what you set out to do even though you did exactly the same thing as the guy that demonstrated an improved target.

Understanding the differences that occur in the exact same weapon, with a carbine length gas system and that same weapon with a mid length gas system is a large clue as to what the gas and buffer systems changes can do in your weapon, and why.
Another hint when discussing springs and their speed of compression and rebound (cyclic rate) can be found in searching for the reason that there is a rubber insert in the spring for the extractor on the bolt (not the added strength o-ring, the actual rubber insert).
It's probably only important for full auto and people shooting in events like 3G where they reportedly can exceed the cyclic rate of a full auto weapon.
Googling these topics might provide an insight as to what's really happening and move an understanding farther away from (as JaPes said) conjecture and home-brew hypothesis, so you can make different changes that move from a gun you are setting up for both accuracy and speed, versus one that is giving a bit more weight to speed over accuracy, versus one that is giving up speed to get accuracy, all in a device where accuracy and speed are pretty much never mutually inclusive.

 

[oneyeopn]

Man...I have to appreciate your brain cells. I have noticed the difference when the bolt slams home. On those two targets, I shot as fast as I could reacquire my point of aim which was not slow fire. I felt that one of the promises of the Hyd Buf was quicker and easier reacquisition. I believe in my case it did. I dont do 3 gun. I just pop prairie dogs at distance. I drive up and hunt off of my pickup so you know that the close easy shots arent going to happen.
Tuesday morning I am shipping the buffer off to BHarada. We will see what his opinion is!