I found a TL, but what is it?

cbjordan76

cbjordan76

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I found a triple lock by a fluke. Two bad photos and a bad description, I decided to take a chance. The gun has obviously been refinished. Non factory, as there are no marks or date stamps on the grip frame. My question is, what is it?? I don't know how to tell what particular model this is. Serial number is 3905. I have read all the "notable threads" (great section!) on the triple lock and read the SCSW, but am still confused...:( I was told that it is chambered in .455 but I do not have any ammo (not even .45 Colt) to check and see. I tried to measure the cylinder and barrel to show size for the experts. Sorry for the bad photos.. Thanks again!
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We have some very knowledgeable people here that will be along to help in a while.
I’ll just say the person that refinished that seems to have done a very good job. A triple lock like that is a gem. Congratulations on a fine revolver. 👍
 
Looks to be a .455 Mark II 1st model that was bought by the British during WW I.

An original gun will have the chamber shoulders located appropriately for the .455 case length (0.77"). The most common conversion would be to .45 Colt at 1.29"; usually the presence of two charge hole rings suggests a modification.

Those done the "proper" way have a slight counterbore to each charge hole for the thicker Colt rim, which also preserves the stampings on the rear cylinder.
 
The presence of factory service marks/date codes is a clear indication an item's been back to the mother ship for service of one sort or another, AND that the owner at the time had no objection to such markings. On the other hand, the absence of such marks doesn't mean an item hasn't been returned-----only that the then owner had an objection to such markings .

All this was the topic of discussion with Jim Carter (Hondo44) as recently as yesterday. He brought the optional nature of all this to light recently, and is to send a copy of the attendant paperwork to me when he returns to his home. More later.

Ralph Tremaine
 
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I won’t be home till Monday to access my files. But that’s a very nice example with a very good factory quality refinish.

It could be a type 1. or type 2. with that serial number.

Without a factory refinish date stamp it’s highly unlikely to be a factory refinish but a rare possibility if it wasn’t for the flat polished rebound slide pin. It’s on the left side of the frame just forward of the top of the grip frame.

More later.
 
Did it come with grips and do you have a photo of them to post? Check the backside of the right grip for a penciled serial number near the top matching the gun.

I agree with those above that it hasn’t been converted to another cartridge.
 
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The mark that looks like a big asterisk is two Broad Arrows, point to point. This indicates that the British government purchased it, then sold it "out of stores".

The column of marks on the left side
The rather curvy Broad Arrow
The Crown
A2
E
indicates that it was accepted into service by inspector A2 at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield.

By fluke or not, that's a great find.
 
Hondo44 said:
Did it come with grips and do you have a photo of them to post? Check the backside of the right grip for a penciled serial number near the top matching the gun.

I agree with those above that it hasn’t been converted to another cartridge.
Click to expand...

Jim,
It came with a set of pearl grips on it. I’d like to find a set of proper grips for it. Thank you for all the input and great information!
 
I have a set of Large Gold Medallion N frame grips squirreled away waiting for something to put them on. They are nowhere near nice enough for the TL under question.

I haven't decided to have them restored until I find the condition of the gun they will be going on. (Be nice if they somewhat matched.)


There is a penciled serial on the right grip, but I can't read all of it.
It starts out with 119(?)and then what looks like two more numbers that are unreadable. (or maybe not there at all as they are smaller. It appears that whoever numbered them started out with large markings and then ran out of room and had to squeeze the last two in....)
 
Ok I'm home and accessed my records.

Your TL #3905 is not listed in the Type 1 TLs:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, Triple Lock, .455 chambering: 812 factory reconfigured unassembled or any unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Model", original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks, Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

Therefore it's a Type 2 .455 TL:

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model" TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to over 5857 shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 67 duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” serial number range (.455 factory converted).

Go to post #223 for the database info, page 5 to get a closer idea of when yours likely shipped:
.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread
 
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lamarw said:
I have both Serial Numbers 2934 and 4365. Neither have been modified and still fire .455. Both were shipped from the S&W Factory in December 1914.

Yours appears to have unit identification marking. Hopefullly someone will be able to tranlate those for you.
Click to expand...

Do both of them have "Simpson Ltd." markings on butt above serial #?
 
rct269 said:
The presence of factory service marks/date codes is a clear indication an item's been back to the mother ship for service of one sort or another, AND that the owner at the time had no objection to such markings. On the other hand, the absence of such marks doesn't mean an item hasn't been returned-----only that the then owner had an objection to such markings .

All this was the topic of discussion with Jim Carter (Hondo44) as recently as yesterday. He brought the optional nature of all this to light recently, and is to send a copy of the attendant paperwork to me when he returns to his home. More later.

Ralph Tremaine
Click to expand...

The only possible scenario I can think of that this TL was factory refinished would be within the following parameters:

It was done after WWII when the rebound slide pin was finished flat on new guns and on refinished guns.

It was done after the early 1980s when all refinish marks/date stamps were abandoned.

But it had to be done before S&W ceased accepting pre 1957 hand ejectors to repair or refinish (last 10-15 years?).

But no way to prove it unless it's lettered and work orders exist in the custody of the S&W Historical Foundation.
 
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