I guess the 40 is not dead

[gnappi]

My first .40's were a S&W 4026, 4006, a Sig P226 then a 1911, none ever hiccuped.
All did the job for me in any competition I shot them in or in carry.

Last week I retired my 1911 Commanders in .38 super and .40 for my M&P 4" in .40 with FS. Not that I'm sensitive to weight but the M&P with 15 rounds is around 5 ounces lighter than my SS Commanders, but it's a bit bulkier to carry.

I'm happy to see S&W offer the .40 in the Metal, now if they made it with the frame safety I'd get one.

Note to S&W regarding a metal with FS, every bathroom has one....

Can an M&P 2.0 frame safety be fitted to the Metal .40 frame?

Reply...

The safety will not fit on the frame of the metal without having to modify it. Thank you and have a great day.

They did not specify if the frame, safety or both needed mods.

PS, just another reason I prefer the FS.

 

[Miami_JBT]

My first .40's were a S&W 4026, 4006, a Sig P226 then a 1911, none ever hiccuped.
All did the job for me in any competition I shot them in or in carry.

Last week I retired my 1911 Commanders in .38 super and .40 for my M&P 4" in .40 with FS. Not that I'm sensitive to weight but the M&P with 15 rounds is around 5 ounces lighter than my SS Commanders, but it's a bit bulkier to carry.

I'm happy to see S&W offer the .40 in the Metal, now if they made it with the frame safety I'd get one.

Note to S&W regarding a metal with FS, every bathroom has one....

Can an M&P 2.0 frame safety be fitted to the Metal .40 frame?

Reply...

The safety will not fit on the frame of the metal without having to modify it. Thank you and have a great day.

They did not specify if the frame, safety or both needed mods.

PS, just another reason I prefer the FS.

Have you seen the public restrooms in FL?

1. Every public restroom does not come with a S&W M&P in .40 S&W with a manual safety. Even the ones in the highway rest stops.
2. Those luggage hooks are all missing because they've been ripped off.
3. Real pros just throw their carry piece into the crotch of their pants as they're using the facilities, like a little hammock.
4. That was a very odd thing to specifically post about.

 

[rosewood]

Ya'll do realize the only folks that say the 40 is dead are the 9mm fan boys. They are still butt hurt that 40 knocked the 9mm out for a couple of decades now they want revenge.

Rosewood

 

[gnappi]

Have you seen the public restrooms in FL?

Since I live there, and took the pix in Fla, yes.

I don't put my weapon in the crotch of my pants, YMMV.

I guess after seeing that pic safe action gun users will consider putting them in the crotch as they sit?

 

[sigp220.45]

I’m a big fan of the .40 S&W. My time as an FBI agent (1991-2016) completely enclosed the rise and fall of the round - we issued the 9mm when I started and were back to issuing it when I retired.

I was one of a dozen or so firearms instructors brought back to the mothership to try out all of the .40 caliber candidates for general issue. The 1076 had flamed out and we were issuing 9mm Sigs off of DEA’s contract. My favorite was the HK USP Compact, but the Glock 22 won out, with the option of the Glock 23 for those who preferred it.

I spent 17 years working violent crime in Indian Country (as Title 18 USC calls it) and during that time worked a lot of tribal police shootings. The .40 worked great in all of them. It was especially effective when the bullet recipient was in a vehicle (about half of the shootings).

I never had a problem with folks qualifying with it. My main handgun was a Sig P220 but my second gun was a Glock 27 and it was a breeze to shoot. My youngest son has the little Glock now, which he uses to shoot snakes in the oil field. Kids these days.

Midway in my so-called career 19 dirtbags with boxcutters changed the world. Money went to everything but the ammo budget. Ammo prices and the number of agents went up, the bullet budget stayed the same.

Guns are relatively cheap, ammo isn’t. 14,000 agents use about 1,000 rounds each for quals each year. The math is simple - 14 million rounds a year, usually contracted for in ten year chunks.

Some bright bulb realized 9mm is considerably cheaper than .40 S&W. When you buy it by the boxcar load it adds up. The die was cast.

I like the 9mm too, and its probably a good choice for general issue, but the change was driven by the budget, not any shortcomings on the .40’s part.

 

[biku324]

The Deming PD bought and issued H&K USPs around '98-'99, but the troops weren't allowed to carry them cocked and locked; that kinda defeated the purpose.

The NMSP dumped the 357 Sig about 10-12 years ago - also comparative ammo cost.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I’m a big fan of the .40 S&W. My time as an FBI agent (1991-2016) completely enclosed the rise and fall of the round - we issued the 9mm when I started and were back to issuing it when I retired.

I was one of a dozen or so firearms instructors brought back to the mothership to try out all of the candidates for general issue. The 1076 had flamed out and we were issuing 9mm Sigs off of DEA’s contract. My favorite was the HK USP Compact, but the Glock 22 won out, with the option of the Glock 23 for those who preferred it.

I spent 17 years working violent crime in Indian Country (as Title 18 USC calls it) and during that time worked a lot of tribal police shootings. The .40 worked great in all of them. It was especially effective when the bullet recipient was in a vehicle (about half of the shootings).

I never had a problem with folks qualifying with it. My main handgun was a Sig P220 but my second gun was a Glock 27 and it was a breeze to shoot. My youngest son has the little Glock now, which he uses to shoot snakes in the oil field. Kids these days.

Midway in my so-called career 19 dirtbags with boxcutters changed the world. Money went to everything but the ammo budget. Ammo prices and the number of agents went up, the bullet budget stayed the same.

Guns are relatively cheap, ammo isn’t. 14,000 agents use about 1,000 rounds each for quals each year. The math is simple - 14 million rounds a year, usually contracted for in ten year chunks.

Some bright bulb realized 9mm is considerably cheaper than .40 S&W. When you buy it by the boxcar load it adds up. The die was cast.

I like the 9mm too, and its probably a good choice for general issue, but the change was driven by the budget, not any shortcomings on the .40’s part.

I spent the majority of my LE career carrying a GLOCK 22 and loved it. Off duty, I mostly carried a Beretta 96.

The GLOCK 27 was a breeze to carry and shoot. Still have it and the rest of 'em, plus more .40 S&Ws in the collection.

When GLOCK announced the Gen 4 guns, I purchased them through Lou's Police Supply in Hialeah, FL before they were even publicly available.

They were the largest Blue Label dealin in FL at the time and had huge agency contracts, so as a good customer, I was able to get a Gen 4 G22 before they were even out on the streets.

I sold off my older Gen 2 and Gen 3 GLOCKs and throughout a years, upgraded them all to Gen 4 models.

I also recently refinished my Beretta 96 that I carried off-duty.

I started my career with a GLOCK 17 and ended it with a GLOCK 17 though, due to things out of my control.

 

[gnappi]

>>SNIP<<

Guns are relatively cheap, ammo isn’t. 14,000 agents use about 1,000 rounds each for quals each year. The math is simple - 14 million rounds a year, usually contracted for in ten year chunks.

Some bright bulb realized 9mm is considerably cheaper than .40 S&W. When you buy it by the boxcar load it adds up. The die was cast.

I like the 9mm too, and its probably a good choice for general issue, but the change was driven by the budget, not any shortcomings on the .40’s part.

So that says it all, getting cheap ammo is more important than giving officers the best tools they can.

How sad. If enough officers left or got the blue flu I wonder if the darling 9 would still be there?

VIDEO: Crazed Man Attacking Deputy Soaks Up 12 Rounds Before He's Stopped - The Truth About Guns

 

[Screwball]

So that says it all, getting cheap ammo is more important than giving officers the best tools they can.

How sad. If enough officers left or got the blue flu I wonder if the darling 9 would still be there?

VIDEO: Crazed Man Attacking Deputy Soaks Up 12 Rounds Before He's Stopped - The Truth About Guns

Your argument would only be valid with similar situations (not just a one off… but regular reports) where .40 holes put the subject down. If someone doesn’t hit the CNS or put a round to disable the person’s movement (pelvic girdle), you are waiting for someone to bleed out. That takes some time. A 10mm projectile doing a similar velocity as 9mm isn’t going to speed up blood loss to make a difference.

The .40 isn’t a mini-nuke. It’s a pistol round, just like 9mm. Comes down to making hits on target. For a wider spectrum of L/E, 9mm pistols are easier to shoot than .40… thus increasing hit probability. That pretty much was the FBI report prior to the migration back to 9mm. It was noted that costs were lower with 9mm, and guns tend to last longer than .40 guns… but with similar performance, hits on target was the main takeaway.

You absolutely won’t see a “Blue Flu” over 9mm handguns. Most L/E barely shoot anymore than when they are getting paid… quarterly or bi-annually qualifications. I know a handful of officers I work with that really need TLC by F/Is to pass qualifications. Hell, I know some that have to take medication to control anxiety for qualifications. None of them are worrying about the 9mms in their holsters.

 

[mrshyvley]

Your argument would only be valid with similar situations (not just a one off… but regular reports) where .40 holes put the subject down. If someone doesn’t hit the CNS or put a round to disable the person’s movement (pelvic girdle), you are waiting for someone to bleed out. That takes some time. A 10mm projectile doing a similar velocity as 9mm isn’t going to speed up blood loss to make a difference.

The .40 isn’t a mini-nuke. It’s a pistol round, just like 9mm. Comes down to making hits on target. For a wider spectrum of L/E, 9mm pistols are easier to shoot than .40… thus increasing hit probability. That pretty much was the FBI report prior to the migration back to 9mm. It was noted that costs were lower with 9mm, and guns tend to last longer than .40 guns… but with similar performance, hits on target was the main takeaway.

You absolutely won’t see a “Blue Flu” over 9mm handguns. Most L/E barely shoot anymore than when they are getting paid… quarterly or bi-annually qualifications. I know a handful of officers I work with that really need TLC by F/Is to pass qualifications. Hell, I know some that have to take medication to control anxiety for qualifications. None of them are worrying about the 9mms in their holsters.

I'm being TOTALLY facetious , when I say this.
But IF the power of the round doesn't matter, then why don't they just issue pistols in .22 rimfire?

 

[Screwball]

I'm being TOTALLY facetious , when I say this.
But IF the power of the round doesn't matter, then why don't they just issue pistols in .22 rimfire?

[emoji1787] I have a book about FBI firearms… and they did get .22 revolvers. For training, but was still interesting. Can get it on Amazon (Guns of the FBI by Vanderpool), if someone wanted it.

.22 isn’t more/less identical in performance to 9mm, .40, .45, etc… but I get your post.

 

[sigp220.45]

When I got out in 2016 the once-extensive POW list had been pared down to only Glocks in 9mm and .40 - .45s were no longer going to be authorized. I squeaked under the wire with my grandfathered-in POW Sig .45. But, if a guy or gal really wanted a .40 he/she could buy a 22/23/27 and qualify with it. I don’t know anyone who did.

 

[mrshyvley]

[emoji1787] I have a book about FBI firearms… and they did get .22 revolvers. For training, but was still interesting. Can get it on Amazon (Guns of the FBI by Vanderpool), if someone wanted it.

.22 isn’t more/less identical in performance to 9mm, .40, .45, etc… but I get your post.

That's understandable they would start out training on .22's.

I remember taking a rifle, pistol, and shotgun class when I was in college in the mid 70's, "S351 Leadership Development in Shooting Sports", and we began on .22 pistols and rifles on a 50 foot range in the basement of the campus Union Building.

We moved up to full power rifles, pistols and shotguns as the course went on.
They taught us all the fundamentals of shooting, and at the end of the course, we were Certified Rifle Pistol and Shotgun Instructors.

The class met twice a week, and by the end of it, I was shooting better than I ever have in my life!
It was a lot of fun too!

 

[Brian Parrish]

Your argument would only be valid with similar situations (not just a one off… but regular reports) where .40 holes put the subject down. If someone...(snip)...are getting paid… quarterly or bi-annually qualifications. I know a handful of officers I work with that really need TLC by F/Is to pass qualifications. Hell, I know some that have to take medication to control anxiety for qualifications. None of them are worrying about the 9mms in their holsters.

We don't have to limit ourselves or submit to the restrictions that military command or law enforcement leadership impose upon their people!

The truth is that the Army went to the 5.56 because it has been proven in war that soldiers do not kill with aimed rifle fire! That is a very disturbing statement I know, but I am quoting Jeff Cooper.

The truth is that the 9mm Silvertip was NOT to blame for the deadliest day in FBI history!

The truth is that officers by qualifying once a year are going to the range more often than most of us in the 2A community!

Even those who go to the range do not work from the holster which is forbidden. Even those who do actually go more than occasionally, do not practice in any helpful, meaningful way. They stand there at the line pointing the gun at the target, waiting for the sights to settle down, slowly squeezing the trigger, waiting for the "surprise trigger break".
It is loopy.
Nuts.
Crazy! When are you ever going to be in a situation which calls for that?

Gotta go. Please correct me anyone with my thanks. I enjoyed this thread!

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[biku324]

Not sure where you get your information, but all three agencies in which I worked both trained and qualified starting from holstered revolvers or pistols. The same is true for the police academies I directed.

 

[rosewood]

Not sure where you get your information, but all three agencies in which I worked both trained and qualified starting from holstered revolvers or pistols. The same is true for the police academies I directed.

I think he was talking about civilians and that most public ranges won't let you draw from holster.

I do practice from holster at my range and also at the pistol shoot I go to every few months.

Rosewood

 

[Miami_JBT]

Your argument would only be valid with similar situations (not just a one off… but regular reports) where .40 holes put the subject down. If someone doesn’t hit the CNS or put a round to disable the person’s movement (pelvic girdle), you are waiting for someone to bleed out. That takes some time. A 10mm projectile doing a similar velocity as 9mm isn’t going to speed up blood loss to make a difference.

The .40 isn’t a mini-nuke. It’s a pistol round, just like 9mm. Comes down to making hits on target. For a wider spectrum of L/E, 9mm pistols are easier to shoot than .40… thus increasing hit probability. That pretty much was the FBI report prior to the migration back to 9mm. It was noted that costs were lower with 9mm, and guns tend to last longer than .40 guns… but with similar performance, hits on target was the main takeaway.

You absolutely won’t see a “Blue Flu” over 9mm handguns. Most L/E barely shoot anymore than when they are getting paid… quarterly or bi-annually qualifications. I know a handful of officers I work with that really need TLC by F/Is to pass qualifications. Hell, I know some that have to take medication to control anxiety for qualifications. None of them are worrying about the 9mms in their holsters.

Getting cops to qualify is like getting a five year-old to voluntarily go to the dentist. Doesn't happen. They kick and scream all the way.

Most cops aren't gun folk, same with most in the military.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Not sure where you get your information, but all three agencies in which I worked both trained and qualified starting from holstered revolvers or pistols. The same is true for the police academies I directed.

I am in NC and have past experience also in SC and GA. My nearest range actually has a process for qualifying me to work from the holster which involves shooting under observation. Never did it yet because I just go to the creek.

I asked if I could practice the "Bll Drill" there and the guy at the counter said the rapid shooting restriction is 1 shot per second. I said that the Bill Drill was 6 shots from concealment in 3.5 seconds.
"That is doable if you get approved!" he said.
He gave me the number so I could talk with the owner.
I'll probably just go to the creek.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[sigp220.45]

I shoot at an indoor range every week. I shot today.

The marksmanship, if you can call it that, I see is awful.

I know everyone loves the “cop’s can’t shoot” mantra, but every cop I know can shoot well enough to qualify.

In the Bureau, it was 4 times a year. Don’t qualfy and you’ll get some remedial training, and if you still don’t make it the paperwork machine begins grinding to transition you your new non-gun carrying career.

Standards vary, I know. But on the average every LEO I know can shoot to a standard the average dude at the range will not get to.

I know - you are John Wick and all cops all Barney Fife. This doesn’t apply to you. No one is scoring your targets.

 

[hardluk1]

I think he was talking about civilians and that most public ranges won't let you draw from holster.

I do practice from holster at my range and also at the pistol shoot I go to every few months.

Rosewood[/QUOTE

Primary reason I have had a range at home on a few acers for about 44 years is so I can practice CC draw and fire drills when I have a few minutes to practice ..