I have a Model 3 Double Action in 44 russian, Safe for Light smokeless loads????

[Silver Sam]

Hello, I'm New here!

I recently picked up a Very Nice S&W Model 3 DA 4" barrel in .44 Russian.
I think it was made somewhere around 1885 to 1890....
I could post a Picture... But I'm not real sure how to do that Yet?

It was refinished some time ago, but is very tight and mechanically in Excellent condition.
Losks up tight & the Bore is Great!
I'm loading up some Black Powder Loads for it, But I would like to shoot some Light Smokeless loads in it also......
Anyone have any experience with shooting smokeless in the Old top-breaks??

I was given a box of Black Hills .44 Russian 210gr FPL...
their website shows a speed of 650 fps But No Info on chamber pressures...
So I'm not sure if I should shoot the Ammo or just break it down for components????

Any Advice & Opinions will be Appreciated!!! Thanks!

 

[Silver Sam]

Hello, I'm New here!

I recently picked up a Very Nice S&W Model 3 DA 4" barrel in .44 Russian.
I think it was made somewhere around 1885 to 1890....
I could post a Picture... But I'm not real sure how to do that Yet?

It was refinished some time ago, but is very tight and mechanically in Excellent condition.
Losks up tight & the Bore is Great!
I'm loading up some Black Powder Loads for it, But I would like to shoot some Light Smokeless loads in it also......
Anyone have any experience with shooting smokeless in the Old top-breaks??

I was given a box of Black Hills .44 Russian 210gr FPL...
their website shows a speed of 650 fps But No Info on chamber pressures...
So I'm not sure if I should shoot the Ammo or just break it down for components????

Any Advice & Opinions will be Appreciated!!! Thanks!

 

[opoefc]

Silver Sam, Welcome to the Forum. Lots of us shoot the Black Hills ammo in our older S&Ws, including the #3 .44DAs, with no problem. Due to the rise in Cowboy Shooting, many ammo. companies are making ammo, with low pressures for the older guns. Good luck. Ed.

 

[Silver Sam]

Thanks opoefc....
I called Black Hills to see if I could get info on what powder they use or pressures.
They would'nt share any info, except that they do not recommend shooting their ammo in Antique firearms.....
I expect that is the Standard "Lawyer" Answer...

Heres a shot at posting a Picture....
Hope it works....

 

[ldp4570]

WOW!!!!!!!!! PRETTY!!!!!!!!!
I'd shoot her!!!!!!

 

[dinguss]

Thats the same as the one i just bought!
Looks like the longer Cylinder model.
My ser # is in the 51000s
Im gona shoot smokeless in mine and have in othere Antique S&Ws as well.
But i reload.
Nice looking gun!

 

[Silver Sam]

dinguss....
I understand S&W serial #'s jump around somewhat, But On another post here there is a list of serial known shipping dates for Model 3's...
It shows ser# 35000 sumpin as being the Last Model 3 shipped.
Yours has a ser # 51000 sumpin..... Is It a Model 3???

 

[cgt4570]

I've got one with a 5" barrel that shipped to London in '97. I shoot standard factory cowboy loads, or I reload with IMR Trailboss. (Same in my circa 1882 New Model #3 single action.)
As long as it's in shootable condiont, modern light loads aren't going to hurt it. I know people are concerned about the different pressure curve with smokeless, but compared to the effectiveness of a full cartidge of black powder, Trailboss is extremely light.
Chris

 

[Sebago Son]

Common knowledge says No.

Common practice says Yes.

I've done it in the past for a .44 DA very similar to yours, then I thought better of it and when to Pyrodex CTG.

Today I wouldn't shoot Smokeless in these old guns. Just not worth it.

Drew

 

[Deacon KC]

That's a beautiful firearm! Congrats.

 

[Win38-55]

Here is a thread about using smokeless powder in the 44 Russian. http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...091041252#2091041252
I like the 5744 load mentioned and have used it over the past year.

 

[Silver Sam]

Thanks for the Link Win38-55... Helpful Info!

I never could understand why some people think shooting a BP Substitute is Safe while shooting Smokeless Powder is Not.....

After-all, a BP Substitute is really a slow burning Smokeless Powder with a contaminate in it to make it Smoke.

As you said, IF you choose the correct smokeless powder, Your pressures can be close to those of Real BP.

 

[Win38-55]

My preference is to keep peak pressures below black powder pressures, which is why I tend to use 5744 or IMR 4198 in my antique pistols. Pyrodex P, on the other hand, has a higher pressure than FFg or FFFg.

 

[dinguss]

Silver sam the model thing gets me mixed up! tsome call it the Frist model #3 or the new Navy Model.
Heres a picture of my 4 inch DA Barreled S&W 44 Russian ser #in the 51000s and it has the longer 1 inch and 9/16th long cylinder.
I really like these later Ser # guns the Cylinders longer, I think the latches might be bigger to. its a bigger latch than my NM #3 in 44 russian.
Very nice Revolvers! This one is in ex mechanical condition locks up great.

Click on picture to enlarge!

 

[Silver Sam]

Dinguss... Yep the Cyl. on mine is 1 7/16"
So its 1/8" shorter than Yours.

This is My First Old S&W... I'm learning as I go!
I've talked myself into shooting the Black Hills Ammo I have & as soon as my Dies show up I'll load up some More....

One interesting thing I found while looking at Mfgs load Charts for 44 Russian...

A minimum load with Accurate 5477 makes around 11,000 c.u.p.
While a minimum load with Hodgdon Titegroup (which is a faster burning powder) only makes about 5,100 c.u.p.

I would have thought the Opposite!

 

[Win38-55]

Originally posted by Silver Sam:
One interesting thing I found while looking at Mfgs load Charts for 44 Russian...

A minimum load with Accurate 5477 makes around 11,000 c.u.p.
While a minimum load with Hodgdon Titegroup (which is a faster burning powder) only makes about 5,100 c.u.p.

I would have thought the Opposite!

So would I. What is the velocity of the two loads? I have been wondering if all pressure data uses the same method. What I mean is, do they measure peak pressure, or some RMS type pressure, or average pressure over a certain amount of time on the curve. Anyway, my first question is, what is the velocity of the two loads? Given the difference in pressure, the Titegroup load should be significantly lower in velocity.

The general rule of thumb that I work under is that all other things being equal (same velocity, same bullet, same seating depth, etc.) the slower powder should give a lower pressure than a faster powder. If everything else is the same, but the velocity is different, then we're comparing apples with oranges.

 

[Silver Sam]

The Titegroup load gives you 738 fps with a 200 gr lead bullet.

The 5477 load with the same bullet was 808 fps....

When you "Crank up the Volume" with Titegroup to 963 fps the pressure jumps to 11,400 cup

 

[Win38-55]

That would explain the difference in pressure. However, the 963 fps load you mention must have the pressure spike smoothed down somewhat. I'm surprised it is only 11,400 fps. I would have expected higher. For me, the max peak pressure is important if the hoop stress generated is higher than the elastic limit of the steel being used. I don't ever want to exceed that, even for a microsecond. The load tables might say Titegroup is safe, but I prefer to stay away from any powder faster than 2400 in my antiques.