I just watched In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders

[jaykellogg]

This was fairly new to me although I am sure a lot of members here are familiar with the movie or the events that inspired the movie. If you are not, read this 1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was this event that led the FBI to go to 10mm and later to .40 cal weapons and to autoloading pistols. The two perps were truely bad news.

The movie was well made and informative.

 

[Old cop]

I saw it yesterday too and recall the event, I was in LE at the time. This, along with other LEO involved shootings, was used for training. The duty related shootings I was involved in caused me to react the way I was trained and it served me well.

 

[JJEH]

Stuff like that is really bad and sometimes I ask myself why LE don't has an Artillery...

I recently watched a story about the 1997 Hollywood shootout on TV. AK47 vs. 9mm is just way off... According to the report on TV, LE had to borrow rifles and ammo from local gun dealers to fight the 2 heavily armed bank robbers which also wore body armor.

After that, if I understood it correctly, LEO were ordered to get rifles with in their patrol cars...

North Hollywood shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jaykellogg]

Both of these shootouts changed the way LE operates and what they carry. In the FBI shootout, it took too long to reload revolvers and one agent was unable to reload because of blood and tissue in the chambers. Both have been studied extensively. I understand the LEOs did go for AR-15s, but I think the shootout was over by the time they got back with them. In the Miami shootout the FBU had a 4:1 advantage but were outgunned. Only 2 agents had shotguns and only one was used. Both agents killed were shot with a .223 rifle.

Only 2 agents had body armor and it was lightweight designed to stop only handgun bullets.

 

[MaximumLawman]

There are so many variables that are in the hands of the "suspect" on a traffic stop that no matter how much you bench race or second guess or strategize.....If the bad guy wants you dead, chances are very good that you're going to at least end up shot, if not killed on a traffic stop.

 

[The Big D]

Terrible and multiple tactical decisions resulted in the deaths of S/A's Grogan and Dove.

That said, their deaths have likely saved myriad LEO's from similar fates. They surely did NOT die in vain.

Be thou at peace, Special Agent Dove and Special Agent Grogan.

 

[badge]

Having been in LE in that area I have some knowledge of the incident albeit, not first hand. First off, those agents were extremly brave men and two did not survive.

They had at that time MP 5 Carbines, semi auto as well as Remington 870 shotguns at their disposal. The two agents killed were SWAT agents and carried 9mm S&W 59 semi autos while the others were armed with revolvers. Unfortunarely, both 9mm carbines were not on the scene of the stop and one 870 was deployed.

Tactics are the name of the game in any situation but as in this case, the best laid plans go haywire real fast. The bad guys did have military training. One had a semiautomatic rifle. ( Ruger Mini 14 ), and used it to his advantage. The other did have a shotgun but it did not work to his advantage. As residents on that street in south Dade reported, there was such a volume of gunfire that there was " a cloud " of smoke that hung over that small area. Prior to my leaving my former agency, semi automatic patrol rifles were authorized. Remington 870's were always available with slugs or buckshot. That option was not available to the LAPD officers. They were restricted to buckshot only. Thankfully LE has come a long way from when I was hired. A 4" .38 special with two speed loaders and not many officers carried a shotgun. I noted that the older veterans did and I thought if they thought it a good idea I should do the same. I hope I have not rambled too long in no particular direction but this is a dangerous time and our lawmen must have the best equipment and our support.

 

[MaximumLawman]

The 870 is a devastating and extremely versatile and, relatively speaking, "ancient" weapon. For the urban law enforcer you really don't need much more. I don't think I've ever heard of bad guys winning a shootout against multiple cops who were all armed and proficient with 870's with a combination of slugs and buckshot.

 

[jaykellogg]

I took the Citizen's Academy at our local Buncombe County Sheriff's Dept. Most of the deputies are armed with dept issued Glock 9mm pistols and are allowed to carry an AR-15A2. I don't know why, but only SWAT carries the A4. Pretty much all of them use vests with the hard panels that will stop a rifle bullet. We have one of the largest counties in NC. It can take some time to get backup. That was an issue in the FBI shootout. It took 5 minutes to get local police there.

Both of the agnets killed in the Miami shootout were shot with the .223.

 

[federali]

Seminal shootings

I've used the FBI Miami shootout as the basis of a lesson plan. At the time, I was attending a course at the S&W Academy and I believe it was noted instructor, Bill Boroughs, who said that in this instance, the FBI was simply outfought. The Feds had their shoulder weapons in their trunks, as though they really didn't expect to catch the bad guys that day. The bad guys had their bad-boy mindset turned to full volume.

Another seminal police shootout that must be studied and which lead to significant changes in police training was the tragic Newhall, CA. case in which four CHP officers lost their lives. I believe it happened in 1970.

 

[jaykellogg]

The Feds had their shoulder weapons in their trunks, as though they really didn't expect to catch the bad guys that day. The bad guys had their bad-boy mindset turned to full volume.

One agent laid a .357 on the seat of his car and it was lost when he wrecked his car and the door flew open. He had to fight with a backup gun. One agent lost his glasses and there is debate as to how much affect this had. According to the movie a lot, according to the FBI, not much. At the range that was shown in the movie, I bet he could shoot fine.

 

[WR Moore]

There are certainly better and more detailed discussions of this incident than the mish-mash from Wiki. Some of the sources cited have been updated since first released.

Items of interest:
1. When the FBI team encountered Platt & Mattix, they were something like 7 weeks into a search for them. Vests were in the back seats instead of being worn and long weapons had migrated back to trunks.

2. Naturally, the encounter with P&M was casual, they were driving in the opposite direction when recognized by the Agents, who then followed. When it became obvious that they'd been 'made' a decision was made to immobilize them and attempt arrest.

3. Some time prior to the incident, Grogan had been required to fire a qual course without his corrective eyewear. He passed.

 

[jaykellogg]

Here is a site put up by the FBI FBI — Fatal Firefight in Miami

There is a lot of detail here on the firearms used in this fight and the wounds recieved. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

 

[xk31]

It has been a while since I watched the movie. As I recall, not bad for a made for TV movie. As to the actual shootout, much has been said and written about it, some quite well researched and thought out. The other incidents referred to also have become legendary in Law Enforcement. Personally, I was in Law Enforcement at the time, and I first became aware of the Miami Shootout when I tuned in to a wild feed from a satellite on the old C-Band satellite receiver (remember those) and saw a feed for the national news that consisted of a camera panning back and forth on the scene. I don't think any of that made it to broadcast, but the image has stayed with me all these years. All of the shootouts referenced in this thread changed the way Law Enforcement was done, and some had an even broader effect, the rise of the 40 S&W cartridge for instance. The best legacy of the brave fallen officers should be in the lessons we can draw from their experiences. Many of us are alive today, because they gave their lives in doing their duty and taught us how to survive.

 

[jaykellogg]

In the news today it mention that one officer in the Sikh shootings in Wisconsin was shot 15 times. Three shots hit his vest, but he survived. In another incident a LEO was shot and killed in Michigan I believe by an executive who was in financial trouble and facing divorce. I will say I am in awe of LEOs that face superior firepower in cases like this and the one at Bank Of America in CA.

It is a job that needs to be done. I am not sure I could do it. I was told that in Buncombe county where I live that the average is slightly over one suicide a day (county wide, not LEOs).

 

[Ship Ahoy]

Terrible and multiple tactical decisions resulted in the deaths of S/A's Grogan and Dove.

That said, their deaths have likely saved myriad LEO's from similar fates. They surely did NOT die in vain.

Be thou at peace, Special Agent Dove and Special Agent Grogan.

 

[REDTAIL]

I bought the DVD @ Wally World for $5.00 with David Soul great movie and account of the Shoot out that took place back then.