I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry today

eb07

eb07

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Good friend's wife. Never like firearms. Had an incident at work with a crazy client and decided it was time to protect herself.

Goes to gun shops, gets pushed into the normal rigmarole of buy a snub, buy a glock 9, buy an LCP, buy this, buy that. Was very confused and intimidated. My friend is also not a "gun guy" but he owns one.

So I offered to take her to the desert and let her shoot some of my collection to get an idea of what SHE wants.

Started off with the Ruger Sr-22. Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face.

Shot this for a while until she was comfortable.

Went to the LCR 22WMR. Was ok with recoil but did not like trigger and sights. Just wasn;t a fan of the revolver much to my dismay but it's her choice right?

Moved her to the 442 so she could experience 38sp. Even with 148gr wadcutters, did not like recoil and the sights and was completely inaccurate and uncomfortable with the trigger pull ( which is sweet and has been worked over by Nelson Ford). Hurt her hands. So removed boot grip and threw on pachmayr. Still didn't like it.

Went to the P3AT. Could not rack slide. Hated sights. hated recoil. Hated grip. Could barely pull the trigger. Same thing with LCPII although trigger was a little better. Hated both of the mouse guns.

Moved up to micro nines. Nano, 43, and LC9. Did not like the recoil on any of them and was scared of them. Had a hard time racking slides. Wasn't a fan.

Gave her G26 with extended grip. Still hated trigger and recoil and grip. Could not rack slide.

After a some time out there which I let her dictate how much she shot, she informed me that she was scared to come out in the beginning but starting off with the 22 made her feel way more comfortable and she was still sacred of the other handguns. So we went back to the SR22 and worked on accuracy and manipulations.

She felt more comfortable with the Sr-22 for these reasons:

1. She could rack the slide
2. The grip was comfortable
3. Recoil wasn't scary
4. Manual safety and magazine disconnect made her feel safer ( which I feel is important for a new shooter)
5. She could easily load the magazines

So after discussing with her the trade offs of using 22LR as a self defense round I told her that she should go with what she is comfortable with and actually enjoyed shooting, rather than buy something she could not manipulate and was scared off.


I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it.

She isn't anti-gun just scared of them. Now she is all excited to go shooting with my wife and I am 100% sure that after a few months of practice, her confidence and skill will build and she may want to try a larger gun on her own terms instead of being pushed into one. Plus it will be cheap to shoot and she can go with us as we go out weekly to improve her skills.

After observing her skills and fear of recoil, I think I made the right recommendation so as not to scare or lose someone new to the sport.


So yeah, I recommended a 22 LR for the first time ever. :D
 
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Good job eb07. Whenever I would teach someone to shoot, and there
have been quite a few, I would start with a .22 too. Then gradually
work up in caliber, and using some revolvers and some semi-autos.
I think you handled her indoctrination just right and I'll bet she
appreciates you.
 
Ditto and double ditto.

I have a dear friend who loves her SIG P-938. The only problem is that she can't shoot it worth jack and she used to be good with a S&W .22 caliber snubbie revolver. I think that her husband, a very good friend of mine, doesn't see the issue. Next time we are together I will show them the problem.

WELL DONE eb07!!!!
 
Didn't James Bond carry a Beretta .22 caliber semi automatic originally? at least until he was ordered by M to turn it in for a Walther PPK.

The .22 LR has a lot of energy and the bullet will richochet around in the body of the victim causing maximum damage.

I have read that Mafia assassins carry .22LR caliber pistols.

My first revolver was a Smith Kit gun in .22 LR with 4 inch barrel when I was 10 years old. I learned early to respect the .22 LR.
No kidding!
 
Now that's the way to help a new shooter. The LGS I most often go to doesn't tell first time shooters, especially women, what to buy. They tell them go to a range and try out different calibers and guns to see what fits their needs and abilities to use.

I have been in gun stores and have seen husband and wives wanting a gun for protection but they have no idea what to get. When my wife wanted a gun for protection and I really didn't know squat about what gun would be good for self protection. We went to a gun show and we asked the vendor what he suggested. He suggested a 38 spl S&W model 36 Rossi clone because it wasn't overly heavy, was a very safe gun for an inexperienced shooter, was easy to use and dependable. We paid $185 for it new in the original box. The wife had no problem shooting the gun and wasn't scared of using it. I still have that gun after 30 years and it still is dependable and accurate.

If I could make a suggestion to gun ranges that also sell guns is advertise one night a week or a month for people interested in getting a gun to come and shoot some to see what they would like and can handle effectively. I know there are many that do have these classes. Have a short class on how to safely handle guns before they let them start shooting. Can you imagine how many new shooters could end up drawing blood because not knowing how to hold a semi auto or revolver safely? I guarantee there are many people that buy a new gun and don't bother reading the gun manual and safe use of the gun.

Anyway kudos to your helping a new shooter enjoy the world of guns. I do have the Ruger SR22lr and it is an enjoyable gun to shoot.
 
My significant other also prefers a 22 over any other caliber, including light 38 special loads out of her 640-1. For purse carry she also prefers the 351c in 22 mag over the 640. (It did take her some time to warm up to the heavy but smooth trigger)

Her first pistol was a 22A which fit her hand well, was easy to operate and maintain and was very accurate. She traded that in for a 617-6 10 shot 4 inch and hasn't looked back since. She rocks it in an old Hunter OWB rig with rentention strap filled with 10 CCI Stingers. We've shot about a 1000 Stingers through it and have never had a single fail to fire. For these reasons, I'm supportive of her preference for it. It should also be noted that I lost track of the round count in the 351c after 1000, and still to this day have not had a failure to fire. It mostly sees CCI but its digested winchester and armscor just fine too.

I believe that 22s can be reliable enough for protection use, but I highly recommend putting the time and practice into finding a super reliable round and be accurate with the first shot/followups.

SVT28
 
My wife's first carry gun was a Bersa Firestorm 22. She could shoot lights out with that little gun, and with CCI Mini-Mags it NEVER malfunctioned. She'd tried a 38, but didn't care for it. "I like this one." She said. Good enough for me.

She carried that little Bersa for years, before she decided on her own that she wanted something bigger. Now she has a Bersa 380 which she shoots just as well.

(She's not recoil sensitive either. I was shooting a 4", Model 29 one afternoon, when she asked to try it. You sure? Yes. After six rounds she turned to me with a shrug and said, "I thought you said this thing kicked?)
 
YOU DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB ! ! !

MAKE SURE THAT YOU TEACH HER HOW TO CLEAR A JAM. SEMI-AUTOS ARE PRONE TO JAM WITH JUNK AMMO.....

I SUGGEST THAT SHE SHOOT CCI MINI-MAGS---A 40GR, GILDED LEAD ROUND NOSE SOLID, THAT IS EXTREMELY RELIABLE, VERY ACCURATE, AND CLEAN BURNING......

BECAUSE THE BULLET IS NOT EXPOSED LEAD, COVERED WITH A HEAVY COAT OF LUBE, THE ACTION DOES NOT GET GUMMED UP---THUS MITIGATING THE PROBLEM OF FAILURES TO EXTRACT/EJECT.....
 
Richochet said:
Didn't James Bond carry a Beretta .22 caliber semi automatic originally? at least until he was ordered by M to turn it in for a Walther PPK.

The .22 LR has a lot of energy and the bullet will richochet around in the body of the victim causing maximum damage.

I have read that Mafia assassins carry .22LR caliber pistols.

My first revolver was a Smith Kit gun in .22 LR with 4 inch barrel when I was 10 years old. I learned early to respect the .22 LR.
No kidding!
Click to expand...

It was a Beretta model 418 in 25 acp. but close enough ;)
 
Good eb07! I always start new shooters off with a .22 also. Usually one of my Ruger Mark II or III pistols and work up from there.
 
While you're at it, maybe have her check out one of the Beretta tip-up barrel semiautos, like the Tomcat or the Bobcat. I've never shot either, but I read a Shooting Illustrated article claiming there have been .32 cal. defensive ammo advances. Both models are easy to load, and have a 7-round magazine.
 
I gave both my grown daughters a .22 revolver for all the reasons enumerated above. During my 30 year career I saw more folks felled by the lowly .22 than anything else and if that's what you can shoot best, no problem. It's better than nothing.
 
Many people tend to regard the .22 rimfires more as toys than real firearms. The reality is that modern .22LR ammo is extremely reliable, very accurate, and has a long history of defensive use. From a handgun there is no great difference in velocities between so-called "standard" loads and so-called "premium" ammo. From a handgun it is doubtful at best that any bullet, regardless of design, will reliably expand or otherwise cause greater trauma or wound cavity than any other bullet.

As several others have pointed out, a hit on target with a .22 is far more effective than a miss with any larger caliber.

The only reservation I would raise is the relative standards of reliability when comparing commonly available .22 rimfire ammo. Not every revolver will reliably discharge every variation of ammo available. Not every semi-auto will reliably feed, fire, extract, eject or otherwise function with complete reliability using every type of ammo available.

The wise person will carefully evaluate the performance of a handgun with the specific ammo to be carried, and when a reliable match is found that shooter will lay in a stockpile of that ammo (same manufacturer, lot number, etc) for long-term use in practice and carry. When the time comes to resupply on ammo it will again be time to carefully evaluate available choices, since ammunition from any manufacturer will be significantly different from one production lot to another.

.22 rimfire ammunition is manufactured domestically (USA) by multiple producers in increments of BILLIONS of rounds annually, and by all worldwide producers in increments probably approaching a trillion or more per year. Packaging varies. Promotional sales will vary. The same manufacturer's name, product number, and SKU may give some indication of contents of the packaging, but the actual contents may vary widely.
 
Good job on helping a new shooter find their way. There are too many that don't take into consideration how a new shooter feels, and they suggest something that, while easy to shoot to them, is not the best choice and scares some away from the sport.

My only change would be to start with the 22 ( revolver and semi-auto ) then move up to something bigger, but not use the j frames or micro guns. They can be a challenge to shoot for people who have some experience. For a new person they are a handful, and not very good for teaching a newbie the ropes.

My other half has gone out shooting with me numerous times, and while she enjoyed the 22s,and my .36 black powder revolver , anything much bigger she wasn't too interested in. She did like the 39-2 I have, but it was right on the edge of her comfort zone.

I wouldn't have her shoot the 642 or PA-63 I have because they would be more of a turn off for her.
 
What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
 
Mister X said:
What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
Click to expand...

Well, here is where you and I completely disagree.

I will have a woman who is confident and will be eager to come out and continue to hone her skills and can make her own choices rather than push something on her due to worrying about caliber effectiveness rather than skill and have the firearm sit in the drawer unused forever.

We gained a once "scared of guns" woman to the fold rather than pushing her into a "service caliber" because the internet told me I have to have one for self defense and then she is still scared of it and never uses it.

Not to mention she can't even hit the target so her five rounds of 38 special go everywhere but where they are supposed to go due to stress, recoil, grip, and trigger pull. What good is it? She should have just carried an axe.


Or should her husband just force her to train with a 38 which she hates? That would be great for her. I am sure she would look forward to that.


Kudos to your mom but not all humans are created equal, and for your info, I am almost 50, in great shape, workout four times a week, train for self defense and hate target shooting.

I am 100% confident I did the right thing and a year from now, she will be a better shooter because of it.
 
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Mister X said:
What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
Click to expand...

So I suppose that your position is that regardless of her skill and comfort level, she should have a larger caliber gun that she can't shoot well, won't practice with and wouldn't carry than a .22 that she is comfortable and capable of using.

While I see the .22 as one of the last possible choices, it is far preferable to being unarmed.

Like shoes, guns are NOT a one size fits all solution and the arrogance to suggest otherwise is defeating the goal of enabling someone to defend themselves.
 
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