I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry today
- Thread starter eb07
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Wee Hooker
Member
The only time I had to pull a gun for defense ( of myself and soon to be wife) was 33 years ago. It was a lowly Jennings J-22 but just the sight of it sent the three would be assailants running. Proving the point that any weapon is better than no weapon .
Considering the demographics and background of those that make up the majority of this forum, I'd expect most members will disagree with me on this topic. I'm ok with that.
What skills is she honing that will help her in an actual defense scenario?
Being a better shooter on the context you presented will not necessarily make her more capable of defending herself effectively.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
Good job. I'm sure it will work just fine for her.
I worked violent crime on Indian reservations in the wild west for 17 of my 25 years in the FBI. I worked many, many shootings (both fatal and non-fatal) and the predominant caliber was the lowly .22 LR (because everybody had one.)
I didn't have a single shooting where a person continued their aggressive behavior after being shot (or shot at) with a .22 caliber weapon. Not one.
I have come to believe that hardware (gun type, caliber, ammo selection) is the least important aspect of self defense.
PS - when my geezerly wrists and hands finally succumb to years of .45 caliber abuse, I have a very nice Beretta Model 87 .22 standing by to see me through my golden years.
I worked violent crime on Indian reservations in the wild west for 17 of my 25 years in the FBI. I worked many, many shootings (both fatal and non-fatal) and the predominant caliber was the lowly .22 LR (because everybody had one.)
I didn't have a single shooting where a person continued their aggressive behavior after being shot (or shot at) with a .22 caliber weapon. Not one.
I have come to believe that hardware (gun type, caliber, ammo selection) is the least important aspect of self defense.
PS - when my geezerly wrists and hands finally succumb to years of .45 caliber abuse, I have a very nice Beretta Model 87 .22 standing by to see me through my golden years.
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Confidence and lack of fear of handguns. That right there is the best reason. Can't understand how you don't get that.
False confidence is not a good thing and fear can be overcome with a minimal amount of education and proper training.
Ok. But then she won't buy or shoot a gun. You can't force people into something. Your solution is completely wrong. It isn't false confidence.
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roscoepc
Member
roscoepc
Member
Stay the course eb07 and Great Job!!!! Mister X seems to just want to argue.....
I understand his point and it applies to 99% of cases. Just not this one.
wnderr
Member
Good Job! Maybe some day she would be a candidate for a .380EZ, and maybe not!
A .22 will kill you pretty dead! Especially if she knows how important shot placement is!
That Walther P22 is also a nice gun, for not much money! Walther P22 QD 22LR Rimfire Pistol with Decocker | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore
A .22 will kill you pretty dead! Especially if she knows how important shot placement is!
That Walther P22 is also a nice gun, for not much money! Walther P22 QD 22LR Rimfire Pistol with Decocker | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore
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My context is effective personal protection/learning how to fight with a gun and that is what the woman in the OP was wanting, but what she received was a shooting/shooting sports perspective as these statements from it illustrate...
"Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face."
"I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it."
Civilian self-defense encounters are almost always quick, dirty and occur at contact or point blank ranges. How to get the weapon into the fight is obviously vital and often extremely difficult, but seldom trained by "shooters". The same applies to weapon retention. Firing from stable stances, with a secure two handed grip using a traditional sight picture is not something that is likely to occur in an actual civilian scenario. Since there was mention of a "client" being a possible threat in the OP, that tells me she is working in close proximity to the individual(s) she is concerned with, so a contact scenario even the more likely. Despite what some instructors may say, it's difficult to keep a semi-auto running in an ECQ situation no matter the training of the individual.
Semi-autos need a certain amount of stability to cycle reliably, but will she be able to keep that .22 auto running while moving, with a crappy one handed grip, while possibly being in physical contact with her assailant? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Plus figure in the finicky nature of .22 autoloaders and of rimfire cartridges themselves. Consider the low stopping power potential of the .22 combined with an untrained woman, who may possibly be older, so situational awareness, reflex and quickness of action and thought aren't going to be on the high end of the spectrum, meaning it going to contact highly probable. If if she has distance, she would likely run out of time.
I've come to notice gun guys seem to have a certain disdain or dismissal for physical fighting and like to take the perspective that they will always have a certain amount of time and distance on their side to effectively "smite their foe" from a safe distance and that that they will be capable of doing so despite no training beyond static range work, but that unfortunately isn't reality. And while I would absolutely agree that the vast majority of civilian armed defense situations are resolved by simply producing a weapon or as soon as shots are fired, that cannot and should not be counted on. She may not be able to break contact or convince the assailant(s) they have somewhere else to be and should move on to another easier victim. She may have to physically stop them and I just don't think a .22 is acceptable in that context, because even if there is adequate separation to get off multiple shots, she would have to make fairly precise hits, while in a panic, against a moving target, while she is likely in motion herself, which she will likely never practice and even if she did, that would be an ideal scenario not what is likely.
I think she would be much better armed with an enclosed hammer snub in .38 special. Standard pressure ammunition is extremely mild and neither my wife, mother or even grandmother(in her 90's) have any significant problems with it. If she absolutely insists on a .22, there are choices available in revolvers.
From Massad Ayoob...
The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns
"Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face."
"I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it."
Civilian self-defense encounters are almost always quick, dirty and occur at contact or point blank ranges. How to get the weapon into the fight is obviously vital and often extremely difficult, but seldom trained by "shooters". The same applies to weapon retention. Firing from stable stances, with a secure two handed grip using a traditional sight picture is not something that is likely to occur in an actual civilian scenario. Since there was mention of a "client" being a possible threat in the OP, that tells me she is working in close proximity to the individual(s) she is concerned with, so a contact scenario even the more likely. Despite what some instructors may say, it's difficult to keep a semi-auto running in an ECQ situation no matter the training of the individual.
Semi-autos need a certain amount of stability to cycle reliably, but will she be able to keep that .22 auto running while moving, with a crappy one handed grip, while possibly being in physical contact with her assailant? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Plus figure in the finicky nature of .22 autoloaders and of rimfire cartridges themselves. Consider the low stopping power potential of the .22 combined with an untrained woman, who may possibly be older, so situational awareness, reflex and quickness of action and thought aren't going to be on the high end of the spectrum, meaning it going to contact highly probable. If if she has distance, she would likely run out of time.
I've come to notice gun guys seem to have a certain disdain or dismissal for physical fighting and like to take the perspective that they will always have a certain amount of time and distance on their side to effectively "smite their foe" from a safe distance and that that they will be capable of doing so despite no training beyond static range work, but that unfortunately isn't reality. And while I would absolutely agree that the vast majority of civilian armed defense situations are resolved by simply producing a weapon or as soon as shots are fired, that cannot and should not be counted on. She may not be able to break contact or convince the assailant(s) they have somewhere else to be and should move on to another easier victim. She may have to physically stop them and I just don't think a .22 is acceptable in that context, because even if there is adequate separation to get off multiple shots, she would have to make fairly precise hits, while in a panic, against a moving target, while she is likely in motion herself, which she will likely never practice and even if she did, that would be an ideal scenario not what is likely.
I think she would be much better armed with an enclosed hammer snub in .38 special. Standard pressure ammunition is extremely mild and neither my wife, mother or even grandmother(in her 90's) have any significant problems with it. If she absolutely insists on a .22, there are choices available in revolvers.
From Massad Ayoob...
The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns
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Almost 60 years ago when I was in college, my girlfriend and I were in my car "admiring the moonlight" on the desert at night, when a truck full of yahoos came barreling up to us, putting us in the truck's headlights. One of them yelled "Let's go" and they began to exit the truck.
I had a Ruger .22 standard model (my first handgun) in the glove compartment, so I pulled it out, held it up to make it visible, and jacked a round into the chamber.
"He's got a gun!"
Immediately, they all jumped back in the truck and took off in a cloud of dust.
I'm a great believer that a .22 in the hand is WAY better than nothing at all. This was the only time in my life that I ever had to pull a gun. I'm positive it prevented some really bad stuff from happening.
John
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Ziggy2525
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I always appreciate your perspective, but am wondering what your source for this is. I've seen you reference Tom Givens before, but when I look at his statistics for the 66 civilian shootouts his students have been in, 92.5% were between 3 and 7 yards. Only 3% were under 2 yards. He says his stats parallel the 20 to 30 shooting/year where FBI agents were "robbed" when bad guys didn't realize they were robbing FBI agents.
Here's a link...
http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018-03_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf
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Marshal Tom
Member
Very good job. I work at Gateway Canyons Resort teaching shooting to our guests. We put over 1200 people through our shoots last year. I specialize in handgun since it was my thing for all my years as an police officer. I purchased three of the new Mark 1V Rugers for the program and often start off new or inexperienced shooters off with them before moving them up to one of our many 9mm choices. It is paramount that you find a very reliable .22 and very reliable ammunition to shoot out of it if you shoos it for self defense use. I have had many, many failures to feed and extract with a variety of bulk ammo that we have used in the program. I have also experienced ammo that would not fire. .22's can be extremely finicky with regard to ammo that they will feed/extract reliably. I purchased a Beretta model 87 for my wife and sold it when she decided to go to a revolver instead. Wish I had kept it. It was 100 percent reliable and one of the best .22's that I have ever owned. As old cop said, I investigated several homicides where a .22 was used with great effect. Not my first choice but I have told many people that I would rather have them hit someone with several .22's than miss them with a more powerful round that they can't control.
fredj338
Member
I could NEVER in good faith recommend a 22lr to anyone for SD. Two reasons; incredibly poor terminal performance & 22lr is notorious for being unreliable.
Recoil is a managed thing, isn't gonna happen on day one. A larger frame 380 would be the minimum. Recoil is milder than the small guns & more grip for more control. A steel frame 9mm would be next up, something like a 5906 or even single stack 1911. If anyone has difficulty racking the slide on just about any pistol, it is poor technique that is the issue. I can get an 8y or 80y old to rack a pistol slide, proper technique is the issue.
I start all my new shooters, old, young, male, female, strong or weak with a 22lr. Then we start moving up. I have gotten brand new shooters shooting decently with a 1911 & 45 target loads. 38sp wc are almost as soft as 22lr & a 3"-4", medium size 357mag with 148gr WC is a no joke decent SD gun with minimal recoil. If you can shoot a 22lr you can shoot that.
Recoil is a managed thing, isn't gonna happen on day one. A larger frame 380 would be the minimum. Recoil is milder than the small guns & more grip for more control. A steel frame 9mm would be next up, something like a 5906 or even single stack 1911. If anyone has difficulty racking the slide on just about any pistol, it is poor technique that is the issue. I can get an 8y or 80y old to rack a pistol slide, proper technique is the issue.
I start all my new shooters, old, young, male, female, strong or weak with a 22lr. Then we start moving up. I have gotten brand new shooters shooting decently with a 1911 & 45 target loads. 38sp wc are almost as soft as 22lr & a 3"-4", medium size 357mag with 148gr WC is a no joke decent SD gun with minimal recoil. If you can shoot a 22lr you can shoot that.
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So as a new shooter I should have immediately taught quick draw and running and shooting?
Do you even understand that the basic building blocks need to be taught before she becomes a pie hitting super tactical 3%er taking down attackers john wick style and running punisher skulls on her lifted truck and putting all her training classes in her signature lines on tactical forums?
Now I don't even know what to say to your out of the zone of reality comments on how to teach a new shooter and introduce them to handguns so I will just stop responding.
I'm aware of the Givens article. I've seen very little specific information given on any of the incidents, which is important to understand what actually occurred and what the stats actually show and document. IIRC, I believe he stated most were armed robberies. Are most of them armed robberies where the intended victim pulled out a gun and started firing as the criminal immediately fled? Was opening firing absolutely necessary? I don't know since he has never provided many details that I'm aware of. And how did he verify the truthfulness and facts of these events? His stats also contradict some other studies that I've come across, such as the much larger Claude Werner study...
https://tacticalprofessor.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/tac-5-year-w-tables.pdf
Tom Givens is also known for saying "three shots in 3 seconds at 3 feet" is still what a typical defensive shooting looks like.
We'll also note Givens is famous for saying, "The primary cause of needing to reload is missing" and as shown in this video demonstrates how little force is needed to induce a malfunction in an autoloader....
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=re8oMnGbnh4[/ame]
Yet he is always advocating for semi-autos, which would seem to be unecessary by his own statements. Of course getting more people to take his very expensive courses would be of benefit and an incentive to him to sell the virtues of the autoloader, despite learning apparently unecessary skills.
http://www.recoilweb.com/old-mans-gun-130902.html
I've discussed these articles with various instructors and I recall one noting that in the Claude Werner study, only incidents where the defender was successful in using their gun to defend themselves were included. Also, one pointed out that those seeking training from Tom Givens are usually going to be very serious students that are going to be well trained and much more situationally aware than most people.
The fact remains that most people don't carry a gun. It is also true that most violence perpetrated upon civilians occurs at very close or contact distances simply because it has to- unarmed assaults, rape, knife attacks and bludgeoning all reThe average person, even if armed, will have great difficultly effectively accessing and using a weapon once physically engaged with an assailant(s). Plus it is not always the correct response to immediately go for the weapon, especially if you haven't a clue how to do it in the context of extreme close-quarters or any knowledge or skill as to how to retain that weapon. That might explain why we supposedly see so many civilian shootings just outside of arms length. I recommend not engaging and shooting anyone if at all possible, so making 15 or 10 yard shots is just not something I devote much thought or training towards.
Armed robberies, muggings and carjackings obviously have to occur at very close distances since they attempting to take something you have. They are not likely going to stand 15 yards away. Someone opening firing at a civilian from long range is just not very common and would be more along the ones of an assassination attempt, terrorist attack or active-shooter scenario, none of which I'm all that concerned with and even if I was, GOTX and fleeing the scene is almost always a better response than hanging around and returning fire. Most gun guys seem to focus on ranged shoot-outs and even running gun battles, but unless you're a gangmember, such events are just not a realistic probability.
Actually, not at all. But, you did confirm my earlier assertion that many on here are dismissive and have disdain for any type of physical fighting methods or combatives. In your case, I think the derision is likely based in fear and feelings of inadeqauency.
Wow, you literally didn't understand a single thing I wrote.
You are right, I am wrong. You got the last word. Cheers.
crstrode
Member
A dissertation such as this one is good when deciding which members to block.
crstrode
Member
My father, a decorated Army Airborne Ranger combat veteran (three bronze stars, a Presidential Citation, and about a pound of other stuff), usually packed either a Sterling 22LR pistol, or a Charter Arms Undercover. He told me more than once that a 22 will kill a man just as dead and just as fast as an Atom Bomb.
There is nothing wrong with his advice and I don't hesitate to carry either of his favorite little shooters from time to time.
max503
Member
I've always wanted a Beretta 22.
My thinking is that EB07 did a good thing in introducing a reticent lady to firearms, and appreciate him taking of his time to do that for another person. I also agree that a 22LR is a lot better than nothing for protecting oneself, especially if one uses it enough to be very familiar with its operation.
Would the lady be more capable of protecting herself if she had a larger caliber? Surely, and not many here would disagree. Would she be more capable of protecting herself if she invested time and money in hand-to-hand self defense training? Certainly. But it sounds like she may not be interested in doing either of these things. So, the bottom line is she is better equipped to protect herself with a 22LR than she would be with no gun at all (her present situation) and no hand-to-hand training (also, I am assuming, her present situation). That is why I think EB07 did a good thing.
Would the lady be more capable of protecting herself if she had a larger caliber? Surely, and not many here would disagree. Would she be more capable of protecting herself if she invested time and money in hand-to-hand self defense training? Certainly. But it sounds like she may not be interested in doing either of these things. So, the bottom line is she is better equipped to protect herself with a 22LR than she would be with no gun at all (her present situation) and no hand-to-hand training (also, I am assuming, her present situation). That is why I think EB07 did a good thing.
There's a certain phrase: the customer is always right. What it means is, even when the customer is wrong, you can either play the hand you're dealt, so to speak, or you can not have a customer.
Nah. I'm dismissive of you. But yeah sure, it's because I'm afraid.
Nah. I'm dismissive of you. But yeah sure, it's because I'm afraid.
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roscoepc
Member
Anyone seen any Mall Ninja's around anywhere?? 
sigp220.45
US Veteran
Eb07's friend went from being able to handle 0% of self defense situations to being able to handle 99.75% of self defense situations.
I'd say that's a pretty good jump.
Please continue to argue about how to handle the remaining 0.25%.
I'd say that's a pretty good jump.
Please continue to argue about how to handle the remaining 0.25%.
Ziggy2525
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My interpretation of Mister X is he feels most civilian gunfights are fist fight distance attacks where a gun gets pulled. Tom Givens talks about most being between 3 to 7 yards.
Based on your FBI experiences that you've mentioned in NOLA and on Indian Reservations, what's your take on civilian gunfight distances.
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