...why is the long eye relief scope part of the package? The only thing I can think of is quick target acquisition. It seems that 'ghost ring' sights would be a better choice for close up encounters.
I think I understand the 'scout rifle' concept, but.......
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My recollection is the forward scope mounting was for faster reloading of the bolt action. Most Scout-style rifles had backup aperture sights also.
There's a lot of discussion here:
https://smith-wessonforum.com/firea...rifle-outlived-its-hey-day.html#post141993752
https://smith-wessonforum.com/firea...rifle-outlived-its-hey-day.html#post141993752
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Agree ghost-rings are a little quicker, but they don't do much for magnification.
I have a Savage in 308 I use for deer. I find it pretty handy.
I have a Savage in 308 I use for deer. I find it pretty handy.
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I had one of those too, with the Leupold Scout Scope on it. I didn't consider myself particularly recoil-sensitive at that time, but the combination of the light weight and stock design made that one highly uncomfortable to shoot.
Yendor357
Member
Just get an AR. ARs come in a wide variety of calibers nowadays. But honestly, if you can’t settle matters with a 223/556 or a 308/762, it’s probably time to call in an air strike. The air strike comment was a joke; just in case there are any liberals reading this.
My new favorite scope for the “Scout” concept is the Leupold 1.5-5 Firedot on the 30mm tube. Turn the magnification down and turn on the dot, and it’s almost as fast as anything. Turn the magnification to 5X and you can reach a long way.
That goofy scope halfway down the barrel never made a bit of sense to me.
My new favorite scope for the “Scout” concept is the Leupold 1.5-5 Firedot on the 30mm tube. Turn the magnification down and turn on the dot, and it’s almost as fast as anything. Turn the magnification to 5X and you can reach a long way.
That goofy scope halfway down the barrel never made a bit of sense to me.
gwpercle
Member
So that the rifle Jeff Cooper wanted to use as his "Scout " could be loaded from the top , bolt open , with stripper clips .
I was never a big fan of the forward mounted scout scope myself and much preferred regular rear mounted scope ...
But ... to each his own .
Stripper clip rifle loading can be fast !
Gary
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An Extended eye relief scope with 2-3x magnification makes it easier to shoot with both eyes open. Try doing that with a 2x Lyman Alaskan…
I am certain that Jeff Cooper would’ve loved the optics options we have today. Red dots but especially the low magnification prism sights. I find those even easier to shoot with both eyes open.
I am certain that Jeff Cooper would’ve loved the optics options we have today. Red dots but especially the low magnification prism sights. I find those even easier to shoot with both eyes open.
Rodan
SWCA Member
As noted by s&wchad, there was a long thread a few months ago that just got resurrected...
IMHO, in the context of the time, the Scout concept made sense... an intermediate range rifle that was handy and could be reloaded quickly, yet provided better accuracy than similar military versions.
Modern semi-autos in mid-range calibers with detachable mags and modern optics fill the same roles more effectively, so the Scout rifle is mostly a nostalgic curiosity at this point.
IMHO, in the context of the time, the Scout concept made sense... an intermediate range rifle that was handy and could be reloaded quickly, yet provided better accuracy than similar military versions.
Modern semi-autos in mid-range calibers with detachable mags and modern optics fill the same roles more effectively, so the Scout rifle is mostly a nostalgic curiosity at this point.
As someone who was both alive and a rifle instructor in AZ when the scout rifle concept was developed and being promoted here’s my recollection of it.
It had several basic premises:
- Reliable bolt action;
-18” to 20” barrel;
- usually but not exclusively chambered for .308/7.62 NATO (7mm-08 was also popular as was .243 and 6mm Rem on the lower end and .350 Rem Mag on the high end);
- weight less than 7 pounds without optics and 8 pounds with optics;
- length no more than 1 meter;
- low power (1-2x) optical sights to allow rapid close range shooting with both eyes open (I’ve seen references to as much as 3x but in my experience that is excessive for effective both eyes open shooting);
- a stripper clip guide on the receiver;
- a long eye relief scope to keep the action clear for loading via stripper clip;
- back up iron sights with a ghost ring aperture;
- accuracy sufficient to hit a torso sized target at 500 yards (roughly 2 MOA); and
- designed to accommodate a “speed sling” suitable for both carry and as a shooting support.
The idea was to create a light, fast handing, accurate carbine with sufficient power and accuracy to be useful for both hunting, and tactical use by a one to three man team. The ultimate SHTF firearm of the day.
——
The Speed Sling concept was a regular carry sling. The difference was the use of QD sockets and a third socket located in front of the forward action screw. The sling itself was adjusted in length so that when detached from the rear socket and reattached to the middle socket, it formed a U of the correct length to lock in the angle of the support arm, much like a military 1907 shooting sling except much faster to employ. It also provided much more support than a hasty sling.
This was in the early 1980s. Cooper later adopted the “Ching Sling” using a third sling loop and strap to create any already formed U.
——
The Remington 600 was a commonly available rifle that could be readily modified to a scout rifle configuration. Back in the day they were coveted for that use, particularly as they had been discontinued a few years before the Scout rifle concept began. Cooper built both his Scout 1 and his Super Scout from Model 600 carbines.
That also partially drove the caliber preferences as the 600 was available in .243 Win, 6mm Rem, 7-08 Rem, .308 Win and .350 Rem Mag (along with 6.5 Rem Mag, .35 Rem, and the too small to be considered appropriate .222 Rem and .223 Rem.
——
Interestingly Copper was not opposed to a semi auto, provided one was developed that was light enough and short enough to meet the other criteria.
Copper also liked the idea of the magazine cut off switch (like the 1903 Springfield as well as the Mauser claw style extractor with its fully controlled feed and reputation for dangerous game hunting, and very reliable extraction under field conditions.
He also was not opposed to a detachable box magazine fed design. However he preferably wanted one with either a magazine cut off switch, or two magazine stops, an initial stop to allow cartridges to be single fed on top of the magazine and then a second deeper stop to allow the shooter to feed directly from the magazine when a high rate of fire was needed or anticipated.
——
As an aside Cooper also liked the original 180 series Mini 14. That was a decade prior to the scout rifle concept but encapsulated similar ideas in terms of being light and handy with suitable accuracy (2 MOA). He would have preferred a heavier cartridge and I think would have really liked a 180 series Mini 14 in 7.62x39.
Unfortunately, Ruger designed the select fire AC-556 for law enforcement and military sales and then redesigned the 181 and later series Mini 14s to use the heavier and larger parts of the AC-556 (slide, bolt stock, gas block) as well as the larger (.080” compared to .052”) gas port. The end result was both greater weight and poor accuracy due to the over gassed condition, the excessive slide velocity, and greater reciprocating mass with its negative effects on barrel harmonics. Ruger screwed up a very promising design.
It had several basic premises:
- Reliable bolt action;
-18” to 20” barrel;
- usually but not exclusively chambered for .308/7.62 NATO (7mm-08 was also popular as was .243 and 6mm Rem on the lower end and .350 Rem Mag on the high end);
- weight less than 7 pounds without optics and 8 pounds with optics;
- length no more than 1 meter;
- low power (1-2x) optical sights to allow rapid close range shooting with both eyes open (I’ve seen references to as much as 3x but in my experience that is excessive for effective both eyes open shooting);
- a stripper clip guide on the receiver;
- a long eye relief scope to keep the action clear for loading via stripper clip;
- back up iron sights with a ghost ring aperture;
- accuracy sufficient to hit a torso sized target at 500 yards (roughly 2 MOA); and
- designed to accommodate a “speed sling” suitable for both carry and as a shooting support.
The idea was to create a light, fast handing, accurate carbine with sufficient power and accuracy to be useful for both hunting, and tactical use by a one to three man team. The ultimate SHTF firearm of the day.
——
The Speed Sling concept was a regular carry sling. The difference was the use of QD sockets and a third socket located in front of the forward action screw. The sling itself was adjusted in length so that when detached from the rear socket and reattached to the middle socket, it formed a U of the correct length to lock in the angle of the support arm, much like a military 1907 shooting sling except much faster to employ. It also provided much more support than a hasty sling.
This was in the early 1980s. Cooper later adopted the “Ching Sling” using a third sling loop and strap to create any already formed U.
——
The Remington 600 was a commonly available rifle that could be readily modified to a scout rifle configuration. Back in the day they were coveted for that use, particularly as they had been discontinued a few years before the Scout rifle concept began. Cooper built both his Scout 1 and his Super Scout from Model 600 carbines.
That also partially drove the caliber preferences as the 600 was available in .243 Win, 6mm Rem, 7-08 Rem, .308 Win and .350 Rem Mag (along with 6.5 Rem Mag, .35 Rem, and the too small to be considered appropriate .222 Rem and .223 Rem.
——
Interestingly Copper was not opposed to a semi auto, provided one was developed that was light enough and short enough to meet the other criteria.
Copper also liked the idea of the magazine cut off switch (like the 1903 Springfield as well as the Mauser claw style extractor with its fully controlled feed and reputation for dangerous game hunting, and very reliable extraction under field conditions.
He also was not opposed to a detachable box magazine fed design. However he preferably wanted one with either a magazine cut off switch, or two magazine stops, an initial stop to allow cartridges to be single fed on top of the magazine and then a second deeper stop to allow the shooter to feed directly from the magazine when a high rate of fire was needed or anticipated.
——
As an aside Cooper also liked the original 180 series Mini 14. That was a decade prior to the scout rifle concept but encapsulated similar ideas in terms of being light and handy with suitable accuracy (2 MOA). He would have preferred a heavier cartridge and I think would have really liked a 180 series Mini 14 in 7.62x39.
Unfortunately, Ruger designed the select fire AC-556 for law enforcement and military sales and then redesigned the 181 and later series Mini 14s to use the heavier and larger parts of the AC-556 (slide, bolt stock, gas block) as well as the larger (.080” compared to .052”) gas port. The end result was both greater weight and poor accuracy due to the over gassed condition, the excessive slide velocity, and greater reciprocating mass with its negative effects on barrel harmonics. Ruger screwed up a very promising design.
THE PILGRIM
Member
I think I remember seeing him carrying one with his hand around the action like you can with an unscoped lever gun. Handy to run through the woods with while fighting a government insurrection for those with the tin foil hats 
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rockquarry
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If you have a good, accurate hunting rifle that you shoot well, you're likely ahead of the Scout concept and fad. Not everyone was a Jeff Cooper disciple.
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Agree. IIRC, the Scout rifles from back then were expensive, in the $2,000 range. While not a rifleman, I thought wouldn't a surplus military bolt action serve just as well. Something along the lines of a Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. A lot less expensive in those days, for sure.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
For a current day version, this would do. Hits most of the criteria and the ones it doesn't are kinda irrelevant. Box magazine makes the stripper clips and forward mounted optics unnecessary. 16" barrel is fine. Loss of velocity doesn't take it out of performance spec. Weight and length are below standards and the sling attachments are endless. But it ain't exactly cheap at $1500.
403 Forbidden
403 Forbidden
WWII German ZF-41
Thanks to S&WCHAD for posting the link to the earlier thread.
The scout rifle concept is of debatable utility, especially within the narrow parameters described by Jeff Cooper.
Furthermore, it wasn’t even his original concept!!
The Germans researched, developed, and fielded under combat conditions the same type of rifle during the second half of WWII.
Known as the ZF-41, it began with a long eye relief scope mounted on a detachable mount fitted to select Mauser K-98 rifles. The ZF-41 program later expanded to include the semiauto G-41 rifle, and a short carbine.
Specified as a designated marksman rifle, it was intended to fulfill a different role than a true sniper rifle.
The field results were mixed. Many of these rifles were abandoned in favor of captured scoped mounted Moisin-Nagant rifles.
I believe American Rifleman covered this in an article entitled, “The Original Scout Rifle?” (Published Dec. 2006)
The K98k Zf 41—The First Scout Rifle? | An Official Journal Of The NRA
And, it is covered in much deeper detail in this book, “The German Sniper 1914-1945” by Peter Senich.
PS: COLLECTORS BEWARE! It is very easy to fit unused ZF-41 scopes and mounts to existing K-98s and other rifles.
Thanks to S&WCHAD for posting the link to the earlier thread.
The scout rifle concept is of debatable utility, especially within the narrow parameters described by Jeff Cooper.
Furthermore, it wasn’t even his original concept!!
The Germans researched, developed, and fielded under combat conditions the same type of rifle during the second half of WWII.
Known as the ZF-41, it began with a long eye relief scope mounted on a detachable mount fitted to select Mauser K-98 rifles. The ZF-41 program later expanded to include the semiauto G-41 rifle, and a short carbine.
Specified as a designated marksman rifle, it was intended to fulfill a different role than a true sniper rifle.
The field results were mixed. Many of these rifles were abandoned in favor of captured scoped mounted Moisin-Nagant rifles.
I believe American Rifleman covered this in an article entitled, “The Original Scout Rifle?” (Published Dec. 2006)
The K98k Zf 41—The First Scout Rifle? | An Official Journal Of The NRA
And, it is covered in much deeper detail in this book, “The German Sniper 1914-1945” by Peter Senich.
PS: COLLECTORS BEWARE! It is very easy to fit unused ZF-41 scopes and mounts to existing K-98s and other rifles.
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I’ve never really been a rifleman, more of a hand gunner and shotgunner. Having said that, I own a few comparatively nice rifles and carbines. Spending my LEO career in the PRNJ, I never had an opponent to shoot my rifle at over 150 yards. 50 yards was qualification range, with reduced targets If I remember correctly.
I did build up a scout type rifle topping an older Savage Scout with a Burris Scout scope. It’s my Pocono deer rifle now; not because it’s the best rifle for the application, just that it’s adequate and I already own it.
I did build up a scout type rifle topping an older Savage Scout with a Burris Scout scope. It’s my Pocono deer rifle now; not because it’s the best rifle for the application, just that it’s adequate and I already own it.
I’ve owned two Jungle carbines over the years and still have one. They are light and very handy. But they are not very accurate and don’t hold a zero well.
With the exception of a 500 yard capability a scout rifle doesn’t offer all that much more than a traditional Model 94 carbine in .30-30. If you don’t need to shoot past 200 yards, it’ll do everything a “scout rifle” will. You can’t reload it as fast, but you can reload it on the go feeding on or more rounds in the the loading gate while on the move and keeping it topped off.
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