Identification needed

[studmandragon]

Hello All, I have recently came across a pair of unknown revolvers. They look like model 10's but unsure who the manufacture is. These items have no manufacture name stamped on them except made in USA and the serial #'s.

These revolvers belonged to my friends father who recently passed away. All we know is that the father served in the military and after the war he belonged to a gun club where he purchased these. The odd thing is the club and original purchase was in Germany in the 1950's so we know nothing about the history. I hope someone will be able to help identifying these beautiful pieces. Really nice engravings and pearl like handles. I believe they are pearl. I do see the serial #'s on the bottom of the handle yoke. One of the Serial #'s is v 673789. Both are chambered for 38 S&W. Barrel length is 4" and it's a 6 shooter. Thanks you in advance for your time and information.

S

 

[Camster]

Welcome. These are WW2 S&W "Victory" models.The "V" in the serial number is the immediate identifier.Thousands were produced for the war effort,these probably were used by the British.Originally,they were plain Jane utility models,but these were engraved post war in Germany.
Until recently,I owned a 1948 K22 that was done in the Weisbaden region,in a very similar pattern.Same jeweling of trigger and hammer too.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same engraver did all three.(Mine was unsigned) This sort of work was very reasonable in post war Germany.
Barrel length is five inches btw.
38 S&W is not the same as 38 Special,though some were converted.

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

Beautiful pair!

Interesting grips; made of Plexiglas apparently, and configured for right and left hand to be shot with one in each hand.

Since the cylinders are heat treated, they did not take the re-bluing process as well as the other parts.

The offset serial #s indicate factory military lanyard swivels formerly existed (standard for this model) have been removed and the holes in the gun butts plugged.

 

[DWalt]

As previously stated, both of the revolvers are S&W Victory models, made in large quantities for use by the British Commonwealth military, (and to a lesser extent, the U. S. military) during WWII. The British version was normally referred to as the ".38/200," and was chambered in the .38 S&W caliber. Those in use by U. S. forces (primarily the U. S. Navy) were chambered in caliber .38 Special. The two cartridges are not interchangeable; however, in the postwar period it was not unusual to find .38 S&W chambers bored to accept .38 Special cartridges on the surplus market. Both of the pictured revolvers were likely shipped from S&W in the September-October 1944 period. I also understood that during the postwar occupation period and thereafter, local German firearms engravers worked on engraving firearms at very reasonable prices, especially for U. S. military personnel stationed there, as there was little other demand for their services at that time. Those are very unusual Plexiglas-MOP grips, and likely craftsman-made.

 

[handejector]

When I was young, the old timers called such engraving "cigarette engraving", meaning it could be had in post-war Germany for a carton or two of PX cigarettes!

See if your guns will accept a 38 Special round.
Both show some evidence of having met a reamer.

The plexiglass/pearl laminate is interesting. Plexiglass was readily available from aircraft usage. Lots of turrets and windshields no longer needed it.

 

[Hondo44]

I never knew cigarettes were so expensive back then.

just noticed the machine turning on the extractor rod which is unique and a first for me.

 

[studmandragon]

Thank You for all!

Thanks for all the replies. Fantastic information! I don't know the caliber differences of the 38. The attached picture shows the round differences that I have. The round on the right is what came with the pair. The round on the left is what I have for my Dads old Charter Arms. Is the smaller of the rounds a 38 S&W? The cartridge says 38 s&w and the larger (38 special I believe) does not fit. The handles are Plexiglass.

They both do not have a manufacture name on the barrel. Is their a reason?

I just learned that he went back to Germany and had a custom fitted shotgun. He picked up the revolvers at the same time so it is possible that these were custom fitted as well. Might explain the plexiglass handles. They both came with a western style dual leather holster.

Thanks for all the replies. Will check back later tonight.

Steve

 

[DWalt]

The .38 S&W cartridge is shorter and fatter than the .38 S&W Special, and uses a slightly larger diameter bullet. If a .38 Special round cannot be chambered, that is actually very good, as it means that the .38 S&W chambers were not reamed out to accept .38 Special ammunition. However, .38 S&W ammunition, while still made, is somewhat difficult to find, as most retailers will not stock it. I would imagine that the original factory stampings were simply engraved over. If you examine the engraving under strong magnification, you may be able to see some traces of it.

 

[wunderboy]

Beautiful , a nice treasure.

 

[studmandragon]

does anyone have a value of what they are worth? Also, does it mean anything that no manufacture stamp is indicated?

Thanks again.
Steve

 

[Hondo44]

A car full of cigarettes each?

 

[Muley Gil]

Almost all of the factory markings were covered by the engraving. Don't worry about it!

 

[studmandragon]

I thought the manufacture stamp would be on the side of the barrel which has no engravings. Would the stamp be located elsewhere? Just curious because I thought maybe it would make the pair special in a different way. Thanks for the information. Oh and what do you think its worth?

Thanks,
S

 

[Hondo44]

It had S&W name, address and patent dates on top of barrel, S&W on left side and cartridge stamp on right side. Also S&W logo on the side plate. I believe they were all removed before engraving, just retaining the Made In USA on frame right side.

Value is hard to pinpoint on such a one-of-a-kind engraved pair, a real novelty. And not as desirable to most collectors of military arms and/or S&Ws as modified. Only an auction will determine actual market value.

They might be in the $1000 to $2500 range but that's just a guess and your guess is as good as mine.

 

[studmandragon]

I looked at both sides of the top barrel and don't see any signs of alterations where the manufacture stamp would be. The engraver wouldn't have sanded out the barrel right? Just curious. I just don't know enough about the history and techniques of the old days. Attached are close ups of the barrel.
I know now that the V is victory but is this a model 10 style?

Oh and Camster, your K22 looks awesome!
Thanks again for all the help.

S

 

[Hondo44]

In your case, someone professionally refinished the gun surfaces (to make a clean palate) for engraving and the re-bluing. The alterations performed were the job of completely removing all markings, dings, etc., which means they are eliminated w/o a trace when done correctly. There's nothing left to see, sanded off entirely down to the bare metal and then polished.

The same as deleting something from your computer screen, there are no signs of alteration, the screen is completely blank.

Your guns are the "Model K38/200 British Service Revolver", same as the ".38 Military & Police Model of 1903" except for the cartridge chambering.

They are like the future Model 10s but are not since the model numbering system was not introduced until June 1957.

 

[studmandragon]

Hi Jim, thanks for all the info. You have answered a lot of questions. So are these made by S&W for the British or are they made by a different manufacture? Does the V in front of the serial # still mean victory?

Thanks again.
S

 

[paul s]

They are both manufactured by Smith & Wesson

Hi Jim, thanks for all the info. You have answered a lot of questions. So are these made by S&W for the British or are they made by a different manufacture? Does the V in front of the serial # still mean victory?

Thanks again.
S

 

[Hondo44]

Yes, as Paul said, made by S&W on a contract beginning 6/20/1940 and also later on the "Lend lease" program with the British. Produced thru 1945, over 1/2 million were supplied, with a relatively few in .38 Special and even 180 in .32 S&W Long Hand Ejectors contract date 12/6/40.

The earliest examples did not have the V for Victory. Your serial #s put yours at roughly mid production.

Many of these were re-used thru issuance by the Allies to set-up various German law enforcement agencies after the war and probably almost certainly how yours ended up in Germany to be engraved.

 

[studmandragon]

You guys are full of rich historic information. Thank you for all your help. I have another revolver that I would like to share. It was left to me by my Dad. It is a S&W but I am not sure the history. The model on the yoke is L 51 27 3. Is this a model 27 made in 1951? Not sure what L means. Please see the pictures.

Thanks again for all your help.
S

 

[Hondo44]

You guys are full of rich historic information. Thank you for all your help. I have another revolver that I would like to share. It was left to me by my Dad. It is a S&W but I am not sure the history. The model on the yoke is L 51 27 3. Is this a model 27 made in 1951? Not sure what L means. Please see the pictures.

Thanks again for all your help.
S

What a great family heirloom.

You have a gun produced before Model #s were created which wasn't until 1957. The # you provide is a factory assembly #.

You have what appears to be a Model .38 Military and Police for the .38 Special cartridge but we can't be sure without the serial #.

The serial # is found in these six locations:
Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames with grips that cover the butt
Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
Yoke* - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
Extractor star - backside
Cylinder - rear face
Right stock – depending on vintage, stamped, scratched or penciled on backside of original grips

*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number, which includes any letter prefixes after WW II, is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 & Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames).

 

[Hondo44]

You guys are full of rich historic information. Thank you for all your help. I have another revolver that I would like to share. It was left to me by my Dad. It is a S&W but I am not sure the history. The model on the yoke is L 51 27 3. Is this a model 27 made in 1951? Not sure what L means. Please see the pictures.

Thanks again for all your help.
S

You're welcome. What another great family heirloom.

The digits you provide are a factory assembly # and inspector or assembler stamp. You have a gun produced before Model #s were created which wasn't until 1957.

You have what appears to be a Model .38 Military and Police for the .38 Special cartridge that became the Model 10 later, but we can't be sure without the serial #. It's not a Mod 27 or its predecessor.

The serial # is found in these six locations:
Gun butt* - or forestrap* on I frames with grips that cover the butt
Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud
Yoke* - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
Extractor star - backside
Cylinder - rear face
Right stock – depending on vintage, stamped, scratched or penciled on backside of original grips

*NOTE: The one TRUE place you can be sure of reading the original serial number, which includes any letter prefixes after WW II, is the BUTT of the gun, (or Front grip strap on non-round butt .22/32 & Regulation Police pre Model of 1953 I frames).

 

[DCWilson]

I think Jim is almost certainly correct that the gun is a .38 M&P from the period just before model numbers were introduced. The serial number would consist of a C prefix and a number below approximately 350000. Observable features suggest it was manufactured in the 1948-1955 range. As he suggested, you would have to pull the stocks to see the primary serial number, but if you look at the back of the cylinder or flat underside of the barrel, you should see the number repeated in those easy-to-see locations.

In 1957, the factory began calling this configuration the Model 10.

That front sight may have been user modified. S&W eventually went to half round front sights with a beveled face on the rear, but I don't think the company did that this early; I would expect a complete half round front sight on this gun. Possibly this is a replacement barrel manufactured a few years later. In that case it would probably not have a serial number on it.

 

[studmandragon]

Here is the serial # located under the barrel. C 344211. The finish looks black not the bluing on my 586. Any comment on the value?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[studmandragon]

Thanks again for everyone's help. I have a great understanding for the history of these pieces.


S