"IF I HAD A GUN"

[bamabiker]

"If people don't watch them they will go away." Surely you do not believe that. If these nuts killing multiple people for no reason would go away it would help but unfortunately that's not going to happen either. We need some way to show the truth on a wider scale. Us saying it on forums like this does not reach the people we need to. I do not like the media's crap either but at least shows like this can get people talking and that gives us more opportunity to express our side.

 

[5Wire]

Originally posted by bamabiker:
"If people don't watch them they will go away." Surely you do not believe that. If these nuts killing multiple people for no reason would go away it would help but unfortunately that's not going to happen either. We need some way to show the truth on a wider scale. Us saying it on forums like this does not reach the people we need to. I do not like the media's crap either but at least shows like this can get people talking and that gives us more opportunity to express our side.

I pretty much agree. Doing nothing is failure. Being arrogant and dismissive is also a failing strategy. I'm for assertive, civil prrsentation of facts supported by evidence and directly confronting the panic mongers among the media and local "community organizer" level types. I also encourage friends to take a second look, to go the range, try it out.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by bamabiker:
"If people don't watch them they will go away." Surely you do not believe that. If these nuts killing multiple people for no reason would go away it would help but unfortunately that's not going to happen either. We need some way to show the truth on a wider scale. Us saying it on forums like this does not reach the people we need to. I do not like the media's crap either but at least shows like this can get people talking and that gives us more opportunity to express our side.

Why would the networks continue to broadcast their "news" if nobody is watching? Yes if we don't watch they will go away and because there would be a need for real news something would replace it that people would watch. It's called the free market. If we use it it will work. I'm sure none of us beleive that we get a assertive, civil presentation of facts supportred by evidence from this bunch of propogandists.

 

[bamabiker]

I don't want this to turn into an argument between us(because I think we are on the same side) but you do realize there are alot of people out there that believe what the media is saying and I'm afraid they are the majority or they are going to be if we don't start changing some minds. They are going to watch these shows whether we(gun owners) do or not and the media is going to keep showing them because they have an agenda/reason for it. I will watch the show and I've told some people(non-gun) at work about it and hope they watch it so we can talk about the different aspects of guns and ownership. If you or anyone else does not want to watch it hey that's OK with me. I first brought it up just to let members know it was coming on and certainly don't expect any pro-gun stance. I think I've said enough on this and will now wait to see the show. Have a good evening.

 

[7.62foryou]

Free to do what we want without hurting anyone, it's what makes U.S. great! Enjoy the show!

 

[5Wire]

Originally posted by bamabiker:
I don't want this to turn into an argument between us(because I think we are on the same side) but you do realize there are alot of people out there that believe what the media is saying and I'm afraid they are the majority or they are going to be if we don't start changing some minds. They are going to watch these shows whether we(gun owners) do or not and the media is going to keep showing them because they have an agenda/reason for it. I will watch the show and I've told some people(non-gun) at work about it and hope they watch it so we can talk about the different aspects of guns and ownership. If you or anyone else does not want to watch it hey that's OK with me. I first brought it up just to let members know it was coming on and certainly don't expect any pro-gun stance. I think I've said enough on this and will now wait to see the show. Have a good evening.

Not to put too fine a point on it, and not to offend but the idea that "they" are or are going to be the majority is far and way contrary to every poll I've seen about what people think about the Second Amendment. The majority of Americans time and again support the individual right to arms. The fact that all too many elected people at all levels of government do not accurately or faithfully represent this majority is another matter entirely and we (the people) have to address that misrepresentation. If "they" become the majority, it is our failure, not their success.

IMO

 

[7.62foryou]

So how was the assertive, civil presentation of facts supportred by evidence If I only had a gun 20/20 special? It didn't get good reviews over on the 2ndA politcal fourm. I wish I was wrong but I guess I wasn't. Like betting a hammer will hit the ground when dropped.

 

[5Wire]

I didn't see it until now. It's pretty biased and does not deal with known facts about defensive gun uses.

7.62foryou, I see you using the phrase in my post: "assertive, civil presentation of facts" in two different posts and I'm unclear if you are being sarcastic about my stated discussion preferences or simply ridiculing the idea that any mainstream medium would have such a presentation. Help me out here.

BTW view on line here.

The comments are encouraging and I joined in.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by 5Wire:
I didn't see it until now. It's pretty biased and does not deal with known facts about defensive gun uses.

7.62foryou, I see you using the phrase in my post: "assertive, civil presentation of facts" in two different posts and I'm unclear if you are being sarcastic about my stated discussion preferences or simply ridiculing the idea that any mainstream medium would have such a presentation. Help me out here.

BTW view on line here.

The comments are encouraging and I joined in.

5wire, I agree with the spirit of your preferences but to expect to find it in the media especially on this subect is being shall I say overly hopeful. I haven't found objective reporting in the media for about 25-30 years now, if anything I've watched it get worse. They are one of the major reasons the public is so ill-informed on most subjects as well as canidates for office. I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that I couldn't think of anything more outlandish to expect from the media.

 

[5Wire]

Originally posted by 7.62foryou:
5wire, I agree with the spirit of your preferences but to expect to find it in the media especially on this subject is being shall I say overly hopeful. I haven't found objective reporting in the media for about 25-30 years now, if anything I've watched it get worse. They are one of the major reasons the public is so ill-informed on most subjects as well as canidates for office. I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that I couldn't think of anything more outlandish to expect from the media.

Well, I try not to expect anything and reserve judgment until after the facts are in. I understand the idea of "expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed." No offense taken, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Mark Twain (updated): "If you don't watch the news, you are uninformed, if you do watch the news you are misinformed.

 

[7.62foryou]

Originally posted by 5Wire:

Originally posted by 7.62foryou:
5wire, I agree with the spirit of your preferences but to expect to find it in the media especially on this subject is being shall I say overly hopeful. I haven't found objective reporting in the media for about 25-30 years now, if anything I've watched it get worse. They are one of the major reasons the public is so ill-informed on most subjects as well as canidates for office. I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that I couldn't think of anything more outlandish to expect from the media.

Well, I try not to expect anything and reserve judgment until after the facts are in. I understand the idea of "expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed." No offense taken, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Mark Twain (updated): "If you don't watch the news, you are uninformed, if you do watch the news you are misinformed.

I'm glad you take in the spirit in which it is meant. I get my news from international sources bypassing the rats here in the media whom I hold beneath comtempt. The difference is remakable. I look forward to the day the "news" networks go the way the newspapers are going now. That's why I say don't watch them and they'll go away. The papers are not being read and they are going away. I've always held Mark Twain in high regard

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Well, I had a look at the data posted by 5Wire, and I'll tell you what: in 2005, the latest year for which data is available, the homicide rate among black men 18-24, was 10 times the rate among white men the same age, and 10 times the rate among black females the same age. I'm going to download the data and play with it and come up with some charts to post.

I realize that this is politically incorrect, but heck, I'm a card-carrying liberal social worker, so, if I can't say it, nobody can.

I did a national study in the early 1980s for a liberal foundation. Unlike the studies on gun control done by Pat Caddell (Carter's pollster) and Dick Wirthlin (Reagan's pollster) I actually got to ask some interesting, unbiased questions.

One of them was if the respondent had used a firearm in the preceding year in a variety of situations, including "defending yourself against an animal," and, "defending yourself against another person."

Two very interesting results came from that question. First, since this was a random national sample of all American adults aged 18 and over, the results could be projected to the entire population. Turns out that firearms were used three times as often to prevent an attack as they were used in crimes of interpersonal violence (murder, rape, armed robbery, aggravated assault). Second, guess which demographic group was most likely to report having used a firearm in a defensive situation during the past year. That's right--black women.

Kinda makes sense, don't it? After all, they are the folks living is closest proximity to the black men involved in a hugely disproportionate share of the armed violence that continues to ravage our big cities.

I'm not afraid to say this. And, as a social worker who has had to battle the uncaring bureaucracy that passes for a social safety net for the poorest members of our society, I am not afraid to say that in attacking the rights of law-abiding gun owners, the managers of that terrible system are trying to evade responsibility for its terrible, terrible failure.

But Dickensian, miserly welfare benefits aren't the answer either. We've got to spend the money in a better way.

A few years back some social workers at the University took a group of welfare mothers, with essentially no skills but a lot of guts, and trained them to type, use office equipment, keep books, learn medical terminology, and run a business. This project resulted in something like 16 poor, under-educated women, many black, but many white, starting a successful medical transcription business, which they owned.

As someone who's been there, let me tell you that there is no shortage of entrepreneurial talent on the streets of Washington, D.C., Baltimore, and New Haven, Connecticut. It's just, shall we say, a tad misdirected, and the predominant business model is based on gaining market share via elimination of one's competition rather than on offering a superior value proposition in the marketplace.

Given the huge amounts of money being wasted in the war on drugs, which has now transformed into the war on my AR-15, I'm wondering if maybe we shouldn't be pushing for programs aimed at turning potential gang-bangers into Junior Achievement types. A ten-year commitment to take kids, starting with the young ones, and start involving them in real businesses that pay real wages might have an effect.

 

[5Wire]

Bullseye 2620
Well, I had a look at the data posted by 5Wire, and I'll tell you what: in 2005, the latest year for which data is available, the homicide rate among black men 18-24, was 10 times the rate among white men the same age, and 10 times the rate among black females the same age. I'm going to download the data and play with it and come up with some charts to post.

I realize that this is politically incorrect, but heck, I'm a card-carrying liberal social worker, so, if I can't say it, nobody can.

Exactly. Please post your results.

The Bureau of Justice Site has a bunch of different breakouts of data, among them is by races of offenders and victims.

The survey you mention sounds like it might be related to the Kleck Study. In fact, just how much higher the frequency of guns used to prevent crimes rather than to commit them is discussed here and here and your study may be among those mentioned.

The Effectiveness of firearms used in self defense is astounding.

The CDC data can be melded with data from Violent Crime Report section of the FBI's Uniform Crime Report citing frequencies of crime including those involving firearms.

 

[Bullseye 2620]

Bob,

Any idea on where to find data on the type of firearm used in crime, e.g., revolver, semi-auto pistol, shotgun, rifle, etc? This is important, because the last data I saw was from the mid-90s and it indicated that revolvers were the type most often involved. It would be better though if we had some data from 2005 or after. Thanks.


Vic

 

[5Wire]

This is the only one I know of and it's cited as a 1997 study. Look here under "Firearms" for this and other BOJ publications. This source has links to more recent data but requires some chasing around. Gun Facts, a Guy Smith publication, includes source references for all sorts of information.

Good hunting!

 

[bamabiker]

What would it cost the NRA/gun companies to produce a show telling these FACTS and showing some info on real training for defending yourself with a gun. Heck, I would make a contribution toward such a show.

 

[BarbC]

But Dickensian, miserly welfare benefits aren't the answer either. We've got to spend the money in a better way.

A few years back some social workers at the University took a group of welfare mothers, with essentially no skills but a lot of guts, and trained them to type, use office equipment, keep books, learn medical terminology, and run a business. This project resulted in something like 16 poor, under-educated women, many black, but many white, starting a successful medical transcription business, which they owned.

But that IS the Republican/Conservative way: Teaching them to fish for themselves instead of leaving them to subsist on miserly welfare fish.

 

[5Wire]

Originally posted by bamabiker:
What would it cost the NRA/gun companies to produce a show telling these FACTS and showing some info on real training for defending yourself with a gun. Heck, I would make a contribution toward such a show.

Good question. It would be better if some recognized media news affiliate or public broadcast organization took it on but I'm with 7.62foryou's cynicism of that ever happening. I am convinced the antis ultimate operating agenda is to render the 'the people' powerless so we can be forced to do 'what's best for us.'

 

[5Wire]

Originally posted by BarbC:
...But that IS the Republican/Conservative way: Teaching them to fish for themselves instead of leaving them to subsist on miserly welfare fish.

I agree, Barb, and I'd go a step farther to say that is the American Way.

When 'Bama talked about redistributing wealth during his campaign, he was overlooking for political reasons the incredible redistribution of wealth that has been going on for years in this country.

There's a piece in the Wall Street Journal that shows the 'Income Mobility' within our country where all but most wealthy experienced an increase in income over a ten year period:

This dynamic change is and was far more efficient and fair than the current administration's picking taxpayers' pockets in advance for generations and then parceling it out to the "correct" recipients based on not merit but politics and fouling the already successful economic process at the same time.

The Heritage Foundation has additional details of the Income Mobility phenomenon. Even the New York Times got into the act with an animated graphic showing how Mobility works.

Keep in mind that the very wealthy have been and are already meeting far more of the total Federal Tax Burden than was ever discussed by the Obama supporting Media. See this Congressional Budget Office Summary. So what has happened, in my opinion, is that the Obama Campaign convinced enough voters that something was broken when it was, in fact, churning along just fine, got the power, picked the pockets, and is in the process of dismantling the structure that has provided 234 years of more freedom, more equality, and more even handed justice than the world has ever seen.