If you know Winchester 1897's, please step inside

[ColbyBruce]

I located a Winchester 1897 TD 12 gauge, 32" full choke for $185.00. Very little finish left on it, stock and forearm are worn but do not appear to be cracked anywhere, butt plate worn nearly smooth. The bore is dirty but does not appear to be pitted. Last patent date on the barrel is 10/16/1900. The serial number on the receiver and barrel/mag tube flame are the same, 330689 IIRC, giving it a DOM of 1906. Half of the bead sight is gone, but still threaded into the barrel about 1/2" from the end. Everything appears to work.

1) is there a safety button on this model? If so, where?

2) there are tooth marks, like from a vise, on both sides of the flange around the barrel/mag tube. I was told the TD versions often shot themselves loose, the flange would be squeezed to tighten it up. No teeth marks on any other parts, and the flange does not appear to be bowed out or in. I did not attempt to take it apart.

3) weren't the 1897 models designed for smokeless powder? Would it be safe with modern low brass loads? The barrel does not appear to be Damascus steel.

I really have no use for it, other than to shorten the barrel like a trench gun and use it for coyotes.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[growr]

I still use my grandfathers '97 in SASS.....was mfg in 1902 so nearly the same vintage as yours! Grandpa bulged the barrel so I had to shorten it.

Like many '97's the pistol grip section was broken.....grandpa just wrapped it with wet leather and some brass tacks and let it dry.....still solid all these years later.

Yes, smokeless is NO problem....I use 700x and it delivers very nicely on the shotgun knockdown targets we use.

Tidy that bad boy up and have a blast with it!!

 

[elpac3]

The exposed hammer has a half cock position that functions as the safety...Should be good with low base brass as previously noted.

The color on the receiver looks to be too dark - like someone tried to blue it? The '97s I have seen have had the blue worn off the receiver and have a nickle finish look to them.

I would be inclined not to cut on the barrel. Why ruin a fine old piece?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I have 2 97's. a 1904 and a 1954. I paid more for less on the 1904 as it is mis matched SN's, cut down barrel, wrong butt plate, and a dog carved in the stock! And still a deal!

Keep and eye on the hammer/sear notches, the hammer can fall inconveniently. (easy to have recut!)

Have knowledgeable gunsmith or armorer check chamber length! This gun was not made for 2 3/4" shells.

There is no disconnector on the trigger; this means pull and hold the trigger and the gun will fire every time you cycle the action. I have seen them fire so fast you would think they were full auto.

Take Down 97's hold 4-3" or 5-2 3/4" (if they have a lengthened chamber) in the mag tube. I have a spring and follower kit that adds one round. Non TD's use a different kit. You can find them with suppliers that cater to Cowboy Action Shooters.

I own 6 pump 12 gauge shotguns. When I want to be paid attention to by punks (3 time in last 20 years!), I carry that 18" '97 with 6 in the tube and one in the chamber! If I need to rack the slide for attention purposes, it is better to leave one on the ground than EVER have an empty chamber! I have never seen or heard of anyone arguing with a pump gun!!

Ivan

ETA: My gun likes federal paper and plastic ammo, also likes Winchester AA's. Does not like the all brass shells! Fails to extract!

 

[DWalt]

The earlier Winchester Model 1893, which is very similar in appearance to the 1897, was designed around the use of black powder shells, with smokeless powder shells only then starting to appear on the market. Within a few years, problems with the 1893 appeared as a result of the use of smokeless powder shells. Winchester undertook a sort of "recall" program for the Model 1893s, by offering their owners an exchange for a new Model 1897. Many 1893 owners apparently accepted the offer, as seeing a Model 1893 today is an unusual event. I think I have only ever seen two of them. Yes, the Model 1897 is fine for smokeless shells. They are practically indestructible, and remained in production until the late 1950s.

Several years ago I sold an 1897 I had owned for quite a few years. I had completely refinished and refurbished it myself for use in CAS, but when I quit shooting CAS, I really had no more use for it. I had considerable difficulty in finding any buyers, and ended up selling it at a gun show for around $250 to a guy who planned to saw off the barrel for use in CAS. Made me sick to do it, but I sold it to him anyway.

 

[oneounceload]

Low base or high base really means nothing on today's world of shotgun ammo. A basic 1oz target load running 1200 will be just fine IF the gun is in as good a condition as you say. The height of the brass is a holdover from a LONG time ago; now it is no indicator of anything.

 

[ColbyBruce]

Apparently the adjusting sleeve on the end of the barrel is replaceable to tighten up the barrel to receiver fit. The sleeve is available from Numrich. I think someone may have locked it in a vise for some other reason. I believe a good dousing of Kroil and a detailed cleaning is all this thing needs. I am going after it tomorrow unless my wife pitches a fit. My birthday is next month, LOL!!

I appreciate the replies.

 

[DWalt]

There is some confusion on that point. The original meaning of High Base vs. Low Base is the height of the internal base wad, not the external metal case. That goes back to the paper shotshell days, which are nearly extinct today. With modern plastic cases, most shells have nearly identical molded inner base heights. The main function of the external metal case is to provide a rim for the shotgun's extractor to engage.

 

[Kiwi cop]

$185 for a '97? Only $250 for a refinished one?

Holy heck!

My recently stolen '97 was valued at $1500 NZ ($1050 US) by my valuer for insurance with a cut down barrel and a cracked pistol grip that had been "repaired" with a string wrapping when I bought it. I kept the dust from sanding down a revolver grip, mixed it with PVA glue and worked it into the crack You would never have known it had been split!

I shot some old 2 5/8" shotshells I got with my 1959 Beretta SXS from the original owner through it for cowboy shooting a bunch of times and would still use it for a wild Bunch events if some low life hadn't managed to wriggle it out of my rack after twisting the locking bar.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I think values are coming down a little on 97's with all the Norinco copies and almost 60 years of Winchester production. There are/is just a little more supply than need for SASS or Wild Bunch shooting. I'm noticing that LGS's are starting to turn down 97's as trading material. I paid about $225 in 92 or 93, before the demand has begun to climb. In the first decade of this century everybody shooting any type of SASS wanted on Depending on the scenario, a side by side or a 97 will be better than the other. My gun cart always had both.

Ivan

 

[Kiwi cop]

I think values are coming down a little on 97's with all the Norinco copies and almost 60 years of Winchester production. There are/is just a little more supply than need for SASS or Wild Bunch shooting. I'm noticing that LGS's are starting to turn down 97's as trading material. I paid about $225 in 92 or 93, before the demand has begun to climb. In the first decade of this century everybody shooting any type of SASS wanted on Depending on the scenario, a side by side or a 97 will be better than the other. My gun cart always had both.

Ivan

I replaced my Winchester with a Norinco version for less than half the cost, withstanding the lack of availability here for an original.

And yes, there is room for both on the cart.

 

[ACORN]

I just saw a 97 at a local show in similar condition to your but without the teeth marks for$350 asking price. It didn't last long. For $185 I'd be on it like a duck on a june bug. BUT, I wouldn't cut the tube.

 

[hammerstone]

The 97's have an adjustment that allows you to tighten the barrel/reciever interface. It's not very difficult to do. Just do a search for tighten takedown Winchester 1897.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

With respect to Ivan. I've never saw a 97 that wasn't chambered for 2 3/4" shells. I have 2.(both take downs) My shooter is 32" full choke from 1918. In great shape. I've killed several deer with it with 00 buckshot. My second one is a parts gun(has issues) that I keep if I ever need a part for my other one. I hate to these old guns with castrated barrels!

 

[bulletslap]

The only 1897 not chambered for 2 3/4 shells were the early 16 Gauges.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

Buy it yesterday!!!!!!!!!

 

[2152hq]

Sometimes the receiver extension gets loose on the bbl threads and the bbl itself can be turned a few degrees one way and the other from 12 oclock.
The bbl it set up into the extension very tightly on it's fine thread with a special wrench that avoids deforming the fragile shape of the extension while the bbl is held in a bbl vise.

Kinda rare to see one loose but they do happen. When they do appear one of the things people used to do to tighten them up was to squeeze the extension just over the bbl threads in a vise. It can work,,kind of,, but usually leaves marks and sometimes still deforms the extension.
Maybe that's what happened here,,or maybe someone just held the gun in the handy vise in the garage while working on it or cleaning it one day.

If the slide still works OK and the bbl goes on and off OK, chalk up the marks to 100yrs of use. The price is good for a 97 shooter.
Most any over the counter 12ga 2 3/4" ammo is fine.
The massive carrier is the locking bolt in the gun. Blocking the L shaped breech bolt closed from underneath and itself pivoting in a close fitting machined socket in the rear of the rec'vr. Quite a stout set-up.

Check the trigger half cock (your 'safety') to make sure it's secure and you can't pull the trigger thru it and drop the hammer.
Check the full cock for push-off or extra light pull .
Should be a firing pin disconnector in place. Firing pin won't go all the way forward to the firing position unless the bolt is closed and locked.
Avoids a slam fire,,a real slam fire, the bad kind,with the breech unlocked.
Not the often mentioned one of holding the trigger back and operating the action. This latter firing style is just the design of the disconnector,, re-engageing after the bolt is closed & locked and then allowing the hammer to fall as the sear is out of engagement with it.

Cycle a few dummy rounds through it to make sure the shell stops, carrier, extractors and ejector all function OK.
Several changes in some of the parts and they do wear out over time,,no Kryptonite parts.
The ejector can give trouble as it's a simple L shaped flat spring attached from the outside left wall. Not the most efficient or robust ejector ever made. Repro ejectors are available at fair prices for replacement.

The TD is adj for wear,,same system as a M12 and M42 pump. If you use up the adj range on the sleeve in the gun, there were others made to further advance the take up. But those sleeves get pricey (near $100) when you go looking for them now from parts dealers. Same thing was available for the M12 and M42.
Chances are you'll never need one. Just don't fall in love with taking down and reassembling the gun constantly. Leave it alone and it'll never wear out.

There's a bucket full of complicated parts and springs inside a 97. They can use some general maint once in a while but most never had much. Even treated like that they've held up well.

 

[silentflyer]

I have my grandfathers 12 ga, take it out squirrel hunting a couple times a year, nice to sit in the same forest he did with his old 'long tom" in hand.

 

[pmanton]

I'd love to find a beater 97. I'd redo it into a trench gun.

 

[DWalt]

With respect to Ivan. I've never saw a 97 that wasn't chambered for 2 3/4" shells. I have 2.(both take downs) My shooter is 32" full choke from 1918. In great shape. I've killed several deer with it with 00 buckshot. My second one is a parts gun(has issues) that I keep if I ever need a part for my other one. I hate to these old guns with castrated barrels!

For a very long time, until the 1930s, 2-9/16" length chambers were the standard for 16 gauge (American) guns, including both the Win M97 and the Win M12. BTW, there is considerable evidence that it is in no way dangerous to fire the present standard 2-3/4" length shells in earlier shorter chambered guns. I have a very early (1912) Winchester M1912 (the predecessor to the M12) in 20 gauge having (I think) a 2-1/2" chamber (although the barrel is unmarked as to chamber length, it actually measures closer to 2-5/8"). It works fine with 2-3/4" length shells, except for Federal's. The ejection port is slightly too short to allow fired Federal cases to clear, and it is a PITA to pry them out. Winchester and Remington 20 ga.shells are OK, as their fired (plastic) shell length is slightly less than Federal's.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I bought it

I couldn't stand it, so I went back and got the Winchester 97 today. It isn't the Stoeger M3000 I wanted, but it is 1/3 the price.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The only 1897 not chambered for 2 3/4 shells were the early 16 Gauges.

Have knowledgeable gunsmith or armorer check chamber length! This gun was not made for 2 3/4" shells

.

I am not sure how "early" my 16 gauge 97 Winchester is but it is my Cowboy Action Shooting shotgun - or was - since I have not done that lately. But if I go back to CAS the 16 gauge 97 will be there and all I ever shot in it were modern, commercial birdshot loads. Nary a hiccup.

I had another 97, long barrel like that, and I sold it because I couldn't bear to cut it down and didn't have a use for it as a long barrel. Great cowboy action shotguns - $185 is LOW LOW LOW. At least in my experience.

 

[Drm50]

I have been into 1897 Wins since I was a kid. Fired hundreds of
heavy 2 3/4" mags and Slugs through them with no problem. If
the gun is tight there is no reason to worry about using modern
ammo in them. Two things to look for when buying them: put
hammer on half cock and put pressure on trigger. If hammer falls
or you see movement of hammer it is one that had heavy use and has worn parts. Also some guns will be loose from a lot of
use of the take down feature. Unless you want to spend money
fixing them up stay away from these. Before Cowboy craze 97s
were fairly cheap. They were bringing more than M12s as per
condition. I have cut down 97s and put sights/ scopes on them
for slug guns and they make good ones. I have a really nice one
that I saved from a Bubba job. I was able to save just under 24"
of barrel. I had contoured sights for it and was going to have my
Gunsmith silver solder them because the blue was in such nice
shape I didn't want to mess it up. He knew that I had a 97 that
I had put sights on already. He talked me into making a Turkey
gun out of it by installing screw in chokes. I just wish I hadn't
done stock with Birchwood, I like the old Winchester finish and
there was no reason to refinish it.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I am not sure if this old Winchester has ever been thoroughly cleaned. The bore is good, inside of the magazine tube is a bit rusty, but this 111 year old gun is in good working order. All the metal parts are soaking in diesel fuel for a while.

 

[Pig Hunter]

Colby if the barrel was Damascus you would be really happy, they only made a few and they are worth BIG bucks. As a test P.O. Ackley rebarreled a 97 action to 30-06 with no changes to the action, and it handled the pressure fine. When firing fast you want to have your thumb parallel to the barrel, otherwise the bolt coming back will cut your thumb.

 

[ColbyBruce]

My brother had to have this

After speaking with a fellow in Maine, Michael Orlens, who does shotgun barrel work, he measured and cut. Orlen stated he needed a barrel diameter of .855" or larger to install screw-in chokes. That diameter began at 22.5", so that is now the length. Mr. Orlens suggested we shoot this gun with slugs/buckshot/turkey loads before having the barrel threaded, as sometimes the results are good enough for hunting. Here are a few photos.

 

[ColbyBruce]

The 97 is a good addition to the Winchester 1300 and Mossberg 500.

 

[DWalt]

At one time Winchester made custom Model 97 trap guns called, I believe, the Black Diamond grade. And not too many of them back in the early 20th century. Those are extremely desirable and little known except among serious Winchester shotgun collectors.

 

[ColbyBruce]

With the bead installed.

 

[Pig Hunter]

Let us know how it shoots! Have you ever watches the end of The Wild Bunch ? Good luck , Mark