Illegal Post War M&P

[kscharlie]

Was perusing a large auction site yesterday looking for post war "S" serial numbered M&Ps. Ran across a nickel one and opened it up. Obvious non-factory nickel finish, but I went through the pics anyway. One of them showed the bottom of the grip frame, and there was not even a hint of a serial number. The description made no mention of this, or the serial number being relocated.

The gun is being offered by a brick & mortar store with an FFL. So I sent them an email informing them (politely) that the gun being offered was illegal, and suggested they contact BATF for resolution. Have not heard back from them and the gun is still listed.

I have no plans to pursue this any further. What would you have done?

 

[ken158]

If it was made prior to the 1968 GCA, no serial number is required.

 

[dusty3030]

Let it go, let it go!

 

[Muss Muggins]

That's quite a leap, accusing somebody of a crime when all you know for certain is that there's not a visible serial number on the butt . . .

 

[Targets Guy]

I would have asked them what the s/n was and was it on the barrel flat and cylinder.

 

[italiansport]

I believe the statement above regarding no serial number required if made prior to 1968 is correct. However; I also believe there are other regulations making it illegal to deface or remove a serial number regardless at to when the firearm was originally built. It is my impression that all M&Ps regardless of when they were made originally had serial numbers. Anyone else have information in respect to this?
Jim

 

[Muss Muggins]

Well, it does still have to be on the frame itself. In that respect, the barrel and cylinder would be helpful, but not within the requirements. If I remember correctly, and I don't have access to my Victory to confirm, the serial number should also be on the yoke cutout on the frame, where model numbers are now situated . . .

I would have asked them what the s/n was and was it on the barrel flat and cylinder.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I think it was very nice of you to notify them of your concern but I'd wager that in a brick and mortar store they know the rules and have the gun logged into their bound book WITH a serial number. The lack of one on the bottom of the grip frame is not determinative and I believe that even if the SN was removed the existence of a SN elsewhere keeps the gun legal.

 

[wheelgun610]

A couple years ago I saw a poorly refinished Victory in an established gun store that had had the S/N removed from the butt. When I notified the clerk of the illegal status, he went and got the store owner - who proceeded to tell me I had no idea what I was talking about. It was my first and last time ever walking in the door of that shop.

Oh, and they had a price tag of $595 on the gun. Pretty sure I know which one of us was clueless.

Mark

 

[wheelgun610]

... The lack of one on the bottom of the grip frame is not determinative and I believe that even if the SN was removed the existence of a SN elsewhere keeps the gun legal.

Only if the S/N was on the frame, and either done by the factory or a licensed gunsmith. The S/N has to be on a non-removable part (frame or receiver) to be legal.

Mark

 

[murphydog]

Well, some sellers will take that information to heart and some won’t. They probably used the assembly number to log the gun, given its location relative to newer S & W revolvers. Wouldn’t buy it if I were you....

I believe the rule about pre-GCA guns not requiring a serial number only applies to guns that never had one (lots of .22 rifles of that era, etc.). So a .38 M & P of any vintage does not fall into the SN not needed category.

 

[gmborkovic]

Please, lets not beat this old, dead horse anymore. Just walk away, no run.

 

[hkcavalier]

You've done enough...it's not yours...let it go.

 

[andy52]

I've got several pre-1968 firearms with no ser# I guess I'd better not post pics of them here somebody might turn ATF for no good reason!

 

[two-bit cowboy]

If I remember correctly, and I don't have access to my Victory to confirm, the serial number should also be on the yoke cutout on the frame, where model numbers are now situated . . .

Not so (if you're talking about a WW II Victory, or any other older .38 M&P for that matter).

Here's the only factory-original S&W revolver I've seen without the serial number on the butt -- 1977 Model 36 Navy overrun with a lanyard. There were other Model 36s with lanyards before this; I'm guessing they didn't have the sn on the butt, either, but I haven't seen one.

 

[jpage]

Spanish copy of M&P ?

 

[handejector]

If it was made prior to the 1968 GCA, no serial number is required.

We see that said EVERY time this subject comes up.


Here is what the ATF Regs (the "White Book") says on Page 44:

IF that gun is now located OUTSIDE of Massachusetts, it is pretty obvious it HAS been shipped in interstate commerce!

Here is what Georgia Penal Code says:

(a) A person commits the offense of criminal use of an article with an altered identification mark when he or she buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession a radio, piano, phonograph, sewing machine, washing machine, typewriter, adding machine, comptometer, bicycle, firearm, safe, vacuum cleaner, dictaphone, watch, watch movement, watch case, or any other mechanical or electrical device, appliance, contrivance, material, vessel as defined in Code Section 52-7-3 , or other piece of apparatus or equipment, other than a motor vehicle as defined in Code Section 40-1-1 , from which he or she knows the manufacturer's name plate, serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed for the purpose of concealing or destroying the identity of such article.

(b) A person convicted of the offense of criminal use of an article with an altered identification mark shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years.

Almost all, if not all, states have a similar law making it illegal to POSSESS an article with a removed serial number.

But hey- what's five lousy years in a whole lifetime?

 

[kscharlie]

Yes, this "topic" has come up before. I was not trying to bring up the topic again, and am not trying to beat a dead horse. What I did was saw a gun that had been defaced. If, for some reason, the seller was not knowledgeable enough to realize it had been defaced, I thought it might be a gentlemanly gesture to let him know, and let him deal with it.

I simply asked what others might do in this same situation. I sure as heck did NOT accuse anyone of a crime or threaten to turn them in to BATF. But I would sure hate to see someone lose their FFL and face federal prosecution just because they were ignorant of the law.

 

[delcrossv]

(a) A person commits the offense of criminal use of an article with an altered identification mark when he or she buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or has in his or her possession a ....., vacuum cleaner, ..... as defined in Code Section 52-7-3 , or other piece of apparatus or equipment, other than a motor vehicle as defined in Code Section 40-1-1 , from which he or she knows the manufacturer's name plate, serial number, or any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been removed for the purpose of concealing or destroying the identity of such article.

(b) A person convicted of the offense of criminal use of an article with an altered identification mark shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years.

So a year in the slammer for possessing a defaced Hoover?

Pretty harsh.

 

[handejector]

We don't allow discussion of current auctions per the rules, but I will leave this up as a PSA.