I'm New and confused on "Pre" date revolvers.

[Changeling]

Hi to all.
I'm trying to learn.

Examples model 29 or 27 : When someone says this revolver is a pre 27 or 29 it confuses me, how does one know it is as it says?
How do you tell if it is a "Pre" whatever and what does that mean to the price?

A picture would be really helpfull if you have the time for an explanation.

 

[P&R Fan]

In 1957 S&W gave all their revolvers model names. In my opinion Combat Masterpiece evokes a lot more emotion the M15, but they didn't ask me.
Collectors call them "Pre" if they were made before the change to numbered models. They may be worth more to a collector, but condition is everything.
Jim

 

[bshepherd]

It refers to the fact that in 1957 S&W gave their models numbers. Prior to that the were referred to by names such as Chief's Special, Military and Police etc.

 

[scha]

As a quick explanation - Smith & Wesson did not start using Model numbers until 1957 or so. A revolver that is made prior to 1957 is sometimes referred to as a "pre" model. This usually only applies to revolvers built after WWII and prior to 1957. Revolvers prior to WWII had factory names only. So, a 38 Military and Police 6 shot revolver from 1953 could be considered as a "pre" Model 10. It is essentially the same revolver as a Model 10 it was just made before model numbers were assigned. As with everything Smith & Wesson there are many exceptions and collectors often get much more detailed in their descriptions.

Hope this helps.

 

[Green Frog]

IIRC, it was about 1957 that S&W started applying numerical designations to their various models... they simply took their existing lines and assigned "logical" numbers to them... K-frames 1X, N-frames 2X and J-frames 3X. The models that had the combination of features that would later get those numbers are referred to as "Pre-whatevers." For instance, the Registered Magnum was later just the 357 Magnum, built on a N-frame, became the Model 27. When they started making SS models, they used 6X for all of them, then they started making various 3-digit models, but that's another story!

Froggie

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

The above posters are correct. DOn't worry about being confused that's just the way it is with S&W. There are a lot of parallel things going on-you just need some "Time on the water" so to speak. For instance your pre model 27 will be either pre war or post war There are no pre war pre model 29's because the .44 magnum wasn't made until 1956 which makes it a post war pre 29. There is also pre lock and post lock, pre mim and post mim. So for instance the aforementioned 44 magnum would be a post war, pre MIM pre lock pre 29.
Got it??

 

[Rugskipper]

The above posters are correct. DOn't worry about being confused that's just the way it is with S&W. There are a lot of parallel things going on-you just need some "Time on the water" so to speak. For instance your pre model 27 will be either pre war or post war There are no pre war pre model 29's because the .44 magnum wasn't made until 1956 which makes it a post war pre 29. There is also pre lock and post lock, pre mim and post mim. So for instance the aforementioned 44 magnum would be a post war, pre MIM pre lock pre 29.
Got it??

Sheesh!!! I've been here long enough that post actually made sense. Time to start stamp collecting.

 

[BigBill]

Don't feel bad I am still a noobie after two years+ and still ask dumb questions. Pre model, pre war, post war, registered magnum, 38/44 heavy duty, tripple lock, pre 14 or pre 15 Who knows. But I'm learning everyday. When in doubt just ask here the guys here are willing to help. This is one of the most polite forums on the net.

Just don't talk about topic drifting. Really the guys and gals here are great.

 

[DWalt]

"So for instance the aforementioned 44 magnum would be a post war, pre MIM pre lock pre 29."

There's a lot of unnecessary redundancy there. Being a pre-29 includes all of the other qualifiers, as all pre-29s are post-war, and MIM parts and locks didn't even exist (at least on guns) at the time of its manufacture.

 

[DCWilson]

Everybody likes knowing this kind of stuff once they learn it, but before it sinks in it can seem like way too much information. Sorry about that.

Just to take this even deeper into the weeds, you should know that the hardcore classifiers base their use of the "pre" designation on some postwar engineering changes as well as the post-1945 date. No purist would call a prewar revolver a pre-model anything. After the war the action of the K-frame revolver was changed in 1947 and 1948 for the different calibers, and guns built between then and the introduction of model numbers can be called pre-whatevers. The postwar M&Ps through early 1948 should not be called Pre-10s because they have what is basically a prewar design that is not reflected in the real Model 10 that got its name a decade or so later.

The magic year for N-frames is 1950. A postwar N-frame based on the prewar action is called a Transitional gun. The later N-frames based on the 1950 designs can be called Pre- revolvers.

Any J-frame and the I-frames after 1953 can be called pre-models. A forum member named Hondo44 may have better information on this rule of thumb because of the sequence of minor modifications that can be identified in the small frame revolvers after significant production was resumed in 1950.

 

[66Park]

Changeling, if you have an interest in Smith and Wessons, I would highly recommend buying the book "The Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" by Jim Supica and Richard Nahas. It is the collector's bible. There are other great books, but that is a good place to start, and you'll refer to it for years to come. Also, this forum is an incredible resource. Many of the advanced collectors can furnish information that is not in any book, due to their own research. Smith and Wesson is a company with a long and rich history, and an abundance of models. One never stops learning.

 

[Rick Bowles]

I feel kinda sorry for the OP. He asked what time it is and we proceeded to tell him how to build a watch!

 

[BigBill]

Did we drift somehow? Sorry I'm confused most of the time on the pre stuff too. I believe these guys before believing anyone else.

 

[dotdsd334]

I feel kinda sorry for the OP. He asked what time it is and we proceeded to tell him how to build a watch!

He was talking about watches?!?!?!!!!!. Here I thought I had that "pre" model thing down......guess I'll start over from the beginning.

 

[BigBill]

Pocket watch or wrist watch? I been collecting Russian hunter pocket watches from eBay. There really neat and function great.

I think there pre nam but post Korea.

 

[model70hunter]

Hello Changling. Pre describes a time before a certain event or change.

"Examples model 29 or 27 : When someone says this revolver is a pre 27 or 29 it confuses me, how does one know it is as it says"? Using either as an example the pre model 27/29 will not be marked on the frame, one can open the cylinder and marked on the frame are frame numbers that do not relate to serial number nor model. If the gun is not marked MOD 27/29, a 27 might read 27-2 meaning this model has had modifications and is no longer a MOD 27-1.

This link gives some good descriptions and history of the MOD 27.
m27

"How do you tell if it is what is represented and how do you tell if it is a pre 27 is the same". If a Model of 1950 in 357 Magnum is listed as a pre it will not have MOD 27 and or MOD 27-1 or -2 or -3 etc stamped on the frame.

There are lots of pictures on this Forum, search pre 27's or 27- 1,2,3 and you can see the measurable difference is the stamp or lack of a stamp on the frame. The intrinsic difference is collectability, perceptions in quality, FINISH, accessories like the box and tools. Usually age represents more money with condition being king.

As several have mentioned the pre guns had romantic or wonderfully descriptive names, like Combat Magnum, I suppose it was more of a corporate decision to make their life easier. This revolver is a S&W Model 27 revision or dash 2. This gives them precise numbers to track and left us asking again, what is a pre model something?

 

[bedbugbilly]

Smith & Wesson watches? Geeeze . . now there's something more to collect!

Changeling . . . don't get too overwhelmed . . . . I've been shooting 50 + years, have collected a lot of stuff but only a couple years ago got interested in S & Ws. I like the K frame M & P pre 10 model 10's and it still is confusing. And then we have the "dash numbers" . . .

What amazes me is how much you "pick up" by reading the posts on here - so many knowledgeable folks - and the pictures really help as well when posted. I view it as a "continuing education" process that knows no end.

Just keep reading the various posts and ask questions when you have one . . . somebody will be more than happy to try and answer it. My next step is to get the reference book mentioned as it sounds like a "must have" - a person can never have too many reference books!