Imagine this

[ASA335]

I know, I know; this or something similar has been discussed already, probably many times. Have patience please. Not too long ago I was following one of these discussions and wanted to comment, but work and life interrupted me and I didn’t. Tried to relocate that discussion, but can’t remember the title. So…

Imagine this –

You find yourself in the unenviable position of having to lawfully defend yourself from an unlawful threat of deadly force.

You’ve been in a park walking your small dog. Suddenly you notice two young and apparently healthy guys nearby (within 25’) approach. One of them suddenly flashes a knife and demands money from you “or else”. They continue to approach and are now less than 21’ away – you’ve lost the ability to retreat without exposing your back to imminent deadly threats. You draw and take a shot at the one with the knife and they both turn and run away from you. You see the one that had the knife fall flat into some bushes, he may have dropped the knife anywhere along his escape route, but the other guy continues running.

What do you do when the police show up?

Clam up demanding a lawyer? Leave it up for the police to sort out, possibly after the surviving “victim” has already called the police with “his side” of the story, which of course doesn’t match what you saw?

Or

At least explain that you are the victim because "two guys demanded money and one of them pulled a knife on me and said or else”; that the man that had the knife is over “there” and may have “dropped the knife along the way”; his accomplice looked like … and “he ran that way”? Then add, “I’m sorry, but I’m pretty shook up. I’d now like to calm down and talk to my attorney before I answer anymore question”? (I assume you called 911 quickly after the shooting and imminent threat was gone.)

When the police arrive, you’re possibly the only one living they have at that moment and you have just shot someone.

I ask this after a similar situation was reported in the news some months back. The survivor called police first and claimed the other guy just drew on him and his buddy, yelling racial epitaphs, and killed his buddy. The “good guy” (if his story is true) was treated as the murder suspect, while the “bad guys” (if the “good guy” story is true) were treated as the victims. To the best of my knowledge, this case is still up in the air. Apparently, initially, all the police had to go on was from the first call.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Politely tell the police “I’m sorry, but I’m pretty shook up. I’d now like to calm down and talk to my attorney before I answer ANY questions” other than your name, address, etc. If after consultation your lawyer advises you to speak to the police, do so only if he or she is present.

Trying to work it out at the scene is rarely a good idea, if ever.

 

[feralmerril]

Everybody BUT me is going to tell you to demand a lawyer and say nothing. I am and always have been one of those type that is very open and not afraid to tell the truth. I never have comitted a crime (at least on purpose) and am afraid of nothing or nobody. My problem is I have grown old and out of shape but my brain dont often admit it.
I have on a lower level, have been in a gun fracious. I told the truth and was okay and even given my gun and ammo back without even going to court. Probley after haveing worked security for 35 years most people would be telling you the opposite of my advice and I reconise that. It`s just that I have opperated that way since a boy up and it has ALWAYS worked for me, and I have been in quite a number of tights if I think hard about it. I also have had a lot of faith in God too, and as a christian I refuse to live in fear.

 

[srgvaz]

If the perp was 21 feet away I'd warn them to walk away while they had the chance and at that distance you have time to draw without dropping anyone but that's your choice. If it's 21 inches your best bet would be to defend yourself first while taking the knife away and use it against him. With your mini dog in one hand and the gun in the other, that can spell disaster. However if you walk a larger dog with a sense of defense I don't think you will find yourself in a knife attack as a large growling dog will make someone think twice. If it's a mini dog you can throw it at them while you get your gun, and don't carry $$$$ while walking a dog.

 

[The Big D]

Like feralmerril I am unafraid to tell the truth. However, I am also NOT going to bust a cap(s) on/in a person who is 7 yards from me.

I am thus unable to comment further re: this scenario.

Be safe.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Check your state law about fleeing felons. Simply because someone turned their back and ran doesn't necessarily mean that you have to stop shooting. In most states the unarmed one is still a party to the robbery and has to accept the consequences. That means you can shoot him too in many states.

Anyone with a knife within in 21 ft is a deadly threat (or impact weapon for that matter) owing to the rapidity with which they can close the gap and stab you. Truth be told, that rule reflects a LEO with an exposed pistol that is easy to draw. If your gun is concealed, unless you're very good/well trained with it, someone further out can still close the gap and stab you before the gun ever comes up.

The best thing to do would have been to have a dollar store wallet full of grocery coupons and five dollars in Canadian money to throw in front of you on the ground while you back away.

 

[ASA335]

Just an FYI...

21 feet was chosen based upon the Tueller Drill. 21' = roughly 1.5 seconds to react to an average person charging you. This is the drill that most LE are trained for. It is considered by many the maximun distance a knife or impact weapon armed threat can be to be considered an imminent threat for self defense purposes - thus why I chose it, and I wrote "less than 21'' to make it within that range.

I'm the Use of Force Instructor for my department, and I tried to make the scenario meet the requirements for justifiable use of deadly force - though it is challanging to write a scenario with all the "totality of the circumstance" present to show that deadly force is "justifiable and necessary" (the legal requirement), please consider that this above scenario is intended to meet that requirement.

Oh, and other options to shooting really aren't available. The shot has been taken.

Thank you,

 

[Mr Pokeyman]

Imagine this. You are an officer who arrives at a shooting. A man has been killed. He holds a knife or else a knife is close to his body. Another man has a gun which has been fired and this person refuses to talk to you-the police. He demands an attorney before giving a statement. Humm. What do you think?
What honest citizen who has apparently just killed someone is going to refuse to tell the police why he shot someone? I guarantee you, you will certainly need that attorney now. As far as the distance between you and your attacker, 21 feet is often used as the distance at which a knife wielding nutball should not be permitted to approach a LEO. I wouldn't worry about that. If he put you in fear of either losing your life or serious bodily harm, no one can expect you to whip out a tape measure. I also don't know of any law requiring you to announce that you have a gun either. Be a good citizen and give a good honest statement to the police. Or, carry a lawyer with you at all times.

 

[Strato]

I would describe the event in great detail to every cop who asked.

 

[Erich]

Even though it's not quite on point, this made me think of a post from Tam's blog this a.m.:

View From The Porch: You are likely to be mugged by a grue.

 

[feralmerril]

When I had to go to school in california way back for my guard card they very clearly told us we had no right to shoot back even if someone emptied their gun at us and then turned to run as they no longer was a threat to us! I was a poor student. (But I did know the answer they wanted so I could pass and get my guard card so I could work and eat.)

 

[The Big D]

Even though it's not quite on point, this made me think of a post from Tam's blog this a.m.:

View From The Porch: You are likely to be mugged by a grue.

You're actually on point, Erich.

I spent 30+ years as a LEO and never killed anybody. Never shot anybody, either. I am proud to say that.

Yes, I did use a gun(s) appropriately myriad times. As I was taught...and as I teach...you don't have to shoot/kill someone at every opportunity. Yes, there were multiple instances wherein I could have shot a person(s), and I would have been wholly justified in so doing. In every instance I didn't have to...so I didn't. (For the record, I had no reservations or reluctance to employ deadly force.)

No, none of them got away. And, no one was injured as a result of my not using deadly force.

Be safe.

 

[szuppo]

Am I a former navy seal ranger recon marine in this fantasy or just a guy with a gun?


I really hate "What if" scenarios..........

 

[Bratastic007]

Call the police immediately. The phrase that pays is "I was in fear of my life and I defended myself..." Say that to the 911 dispatch. Say that to the first policeman who shows up. Preface your story with that, and end your story with "I thought he was going to kill me." Keep your story very general--now is not the time to provide all the nitty gritty details.

Comply politely with requests by a police officer to do something reasonable (i.e. handing over your weapon). Don't allow yourself to be taken into custody unless they tell you specifically you are under arrest.

Your 2nd call after 911 should be to your lawyer or to a family member who will immediately call a lawyer on your behalf.

Wait for the lawyer to arrive and provide advice before providing any details beyond the above.

 

[MotorCityGun]

Call the police immediately. The phrase that pays is "I was in fear of my life and I defended myself..." Say that to the 911 dispatch. Say that to the first policeman who shows up. Preface your story with that, and end your story with "I thought he was going to kill me." Keep your story very general--now is not the time to provide all the nitty gritty details.

Comply politely with requests by a police officer to do something reasonable (i.e. handing over your weapon). Don't allow yourself to be taken into custody unless they tell you specifically you are under arrest.

Your 2nd call after 911 should be to your lawyer or to a family member who will immediately call a lawyer on your behalf.

Wait for the lawyer to arrive and provide advice before providing any details beyond the above.

Best advice I've read so far. There have been (way too many) instances over the past couple of years, particularly in Metro Detroit, where legally armed citizens have had to protect themselves and ended up in court. Of course, there has also been some instances of wreckless (but not necessarily unjustifiable) discharging of handguns.

I have rehearsed, at least in my mind, exactly what you have laid out, in terms of what I'm going to say and to who, should the need ever arise. Hopefully, I will never need to.

 

[silvercn]

1. call the police.
(inform them you have shot someone in self-defense, and the situation is contained,
however you need officers to arrive as quickly as possible). HOLSTER YOUR GUN! (if you are safe)

2. call your lawyer and/or trusted family member or friend.
(inform them of the situation as you did to the dispatcher,
then request the lawyer to respond on scene as soon as possible).

3. When police arrive be prepared for them to be armed and drawn.
be prepared to be ordered to the ground and to be held in contempt for the first few mins of the contact.
For all they know you're the suspect and you're a deadly threat. (comply or their may be another shooting).

4. They will most likely cuff you and read you your Miranda rights.
(by this time, you are feeling like they don’t understand and you will really want to explain
that your not the BG and tell them all the details. ~~~~>refrain!)

5. this is where it gets very touchy.
(because your lawyer is not there and you want to explain yourself). here’s what you could say...
"I was in fear for my life, I thought I was going to be killed"
"I shot that man in self-defense, I believe need to speak to my lawyer"
"I am sorry, I want to cooperate fully, I would just like to wait for a lawyer to speak to before we talk about this any further"
"you will have my full cooperation"

6. if the police do not honor your statement and request, they are breaking the law. (you have miranda rights for a reason).
were not talking about an assault... you shot and killed a man.
if found guilty, (not that you were guilty) but you could be found guilty, you could face life in prison! this is serious.
and any police officer worth his weight in blood will respect that.

the right/choice/responsiblity to CC is both comforting and in the same breath risky.
hopefully none of us will have to go through this situation.

be safe....

 

[WR Moore]

I'll go with choice 2. The situation is going to result in you spending time with the nice people in the criminal justice system in either case. I expect your cirumstances will be better in case 2, they have an initial narrative/complaint to go with. I do know of a gent who exercised his right to remain silent after a shooting and spent 18 months as a guest of the state until acquitted at trial. The attorney said that his client had done nothing wrong in refusing to make a statement. If the client had an opinion, it wasn't published.

 

[BarbC]

Something similiar happened to a family member. He was attacked in the park by a man wielding a knife who put it up to his chest, threatening to kill him. Of course, the shot and bleeding man on the ground looked like the victim when the police showed up. The family member was shook up and and had to go to the police station but it was sorted out. Family member - no arrests, clean record, solid citizen. Bleeding man on the ground - other people's property on him, the knife, and a past criminal record.

 

[cmort666]

Make the SHORTEST statement that will convey that you were attacked and defended yourself. "He attacked me and I feared for my life." is fine. Then invoke your right to remain silent and to have legal counsel.

More people talk themselves into jail than out of it.

 

[David Sinko]

I've seen quite a few people shot and/or killed but I can't ever recall having the shooter ever stick around to explain his side of the story. You'd be the first. Still having the gun in hand when we show up will definitely be problematic for you so it should be put away and your hands well clear of it. How you act when I arrive depends on whether you get handcuffed or not. A simple "Yeah, I shot him in self defense." is all I need to hear. Do not answer any questions beyond that unless your lawyer is with you. I do not believe that he who calls 911 first has a leg up in any presumption of innocence. As long as you don't try to run or hide or outright lie to the first officers on scene you should be OK. I work in a big city and we see people get shot all the time. We will know a good shoot when we see one. Decisions to prosecute are always made by the District Attorney and not us, though what you say to us certainly may be used against you. Your attorney is necessary because somewhere up the food chain you will often find somebody who has an agenda, truth be damned. That's just the way it is.

Dave Sinko

 

[Capt Steve]

OK, I'll play "what it".... If you have a gun on you for self defense that doesn't mean you have to shoot. Guy pulls a knife you immediately pull the gun. Unless the guy is completely stupid or drugged out that should end the confrontation right there. Keep him covered as you withdraw to a safe area and call 911. One of the reasons I like the CT Laser Grips on my 649 is they likely will enable me to not have to shoot. That red dot on his chest is going to be a very strong persuader to cease and desist.

Since we are playing "What if" here how about this....Want to stop this attempted two on one robbery before anyone gets dead? Put your laser's red dot on his buddies chest and explain that if the knife isn't dropped immediately his buddy is toast. Now there are two of you emphatically arguing for him to drop the knife. (o; Just kidding folks. I like the idea of a throw down wallet with nothing of value in it. Throw it one direction and take off in the other, not many folks can throw a knife much less hit and stick what they were aiming at. I think i'll go hit some hypothetical golf balls for a while.

 

[BarbC]

"What if" this -- if someone puts a knife onto my chest or even sticks one out to me close enough to reach me in one stride, I'm not going to play 'chicken' with a laser dot. He's going to get shot.

 

[OKFC05]

"What if" this -- if someone puts a knife onto my chest or even sticks one out to me close enough to reach me in one stride, I'm not going to play 'chicken' with a laser dot. He's going to get shot.

Well said. When the danger is imminent, the time for self defense has come and talking is over.

 

[cmort666]

"What if" this -- if someone puts a knife onto my chest or even sticks one out to me close enough to reach me in one stride, I'm not going to play 'chicken' with a laser dot. He's going to get shot.

Once somebody's decided to put an innocent person in reasonable fear of life and limb, they've made a choice. I'm not going to second guess that choice. I'm certainly not going to risk my own life or that of another innocent person to second guess that choice.

Don't want to get shot? Don't convince a reasonable person that you NEED to be shot.

 

[Capt Steve]

"What if" this -- if someone puts a knife onto my chest or even sticks one out to me close enough to reach me in one stride, I'm not going to play 'chicken' with a laser dot. He's going to get shot.

I am not going to shoot at anything or anyone unless I have them sighted in and thats where the red dot is and that is hardly playing chicken. Put it on his chest and most of the time he stops...if not just squeeze the trigger. The OP was talking about someone at 7 yards and advancing not someone having a knife on your chest. Your way you shoot every time, my way it probably won't be necessary but is still just as doable.

 

[feralmerril]

About 35 years ago I had a "incident". I was a guard working graveyard for lockheed in palmdale california. We wore the same uniforms as the local sheriffs dept. I started out to get to work at midnight and was forced off the road by two blacks driveing a old large beater car. I was wearing a holster and belt, but no gun in it as we drew them at work.
I instantly knew what they were up to and quickly got out of my vehicle keeping my body turned to where they couldnt see that my holster was empty! I said, "You two SOBs sure made a mistake"! That took the desired effect as one said, "Aw we thought yo wuz someone else, hee, hee, hee", and scratched out!
As soon as I got to work I called the sheriffs office and got the usual shine on with what was effectively, dont worry citizen, us heros will look into it, sleep easily. Wasnt put that way, but I been there!
I found out the next day that the neighbor kid from across the street was home on his 1st leave from basic, was out running at pre dawn and was rolled and stabbed by what had to have been these same two guys by discription! He survived, but still===. Anyway it had been my habit to carry my own gun at work much of the time prior to that. (It was against company policy but I done it anyway as my personnal gun was a colt .357 trooper and company issue was colt offical polices. If you looked close and knew guns you would notice mine had a target sight and of course the OPs were fixed. I also had the smaller company OP grips on mine to blend in. Anyway that night was one of the very few I wasnt packing my own on the way to work as I was running late! Like I have said here other times, God protects fools! That has been the story of my life too many times!

 

[BarbC]

I didn't shoot the guy who tried to grab my purse (he backed off at the sight of my holstered .357) but if he had a knife, the scenario might have been completely different.

I think there's an issue called equivalency of force, or something to that effect. If the other party is using a weapon and is reasonably close enough to you for them to feel like they can make you fearful of your life enough to hand over what they want, then they are close enough for you to protect your life.

One of them suddenly flashes a knife and demands money from you “or else”. They continue to approach and are now less than 21’ away – you’ve lost the ability to retreat without exposing your back to imminent deadly threats.

I'm really not going to dither around guessing the level of their deadly intentions. As cmort said, they've already made their choice of what they were willing to risk.

 

[cmort666]

I think there's an issue called equivalency of force, or something to that effect.

There's also "disparity" of force.

The mere absence of a weapon in your attacker's hand doesn't automatically negate your legal right to use deadly force to defend yourself. If:

1. Your attacker is larger, younger, stronger, or more experienced
2. You have a significant disadvantage, such as age, infirmity, handicap
3. Your attackers outnumber you

You may use deadly force if you reasonably fear for your life and limb.

Every time I see some macho ******* demand that somebody "take their whuppin'" from a total stranger with unknown or obviously bad intentions, I hope they have the opportunity to put those words into practice. I've been known to ask if they'd expect the same of their mother, wife or daughter.

People who expect you to "take a whuppin'" either never have themselves, or are drunken imbeciles who've taken a LOT... usually one too many involving a head injury.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The OP was talking about someone at 7 yards and advancing not someone having a knife on your chest. Your way you shoot every time, my way it probably won't be necessary but is still just as doable.

No, it isn't, unless your gun was already out when the guy got to 7 yards and was advancing. While I'm not really 100% sure of the detailed plans of an announced robber with a knife, I don't care for the odds, and I have some idea of what he may be capable of. IFF someone is actually stupid enough to pull a knife at seven or eight or ten yards and announce a robbery, I'm going to move if I can, draw and shoot if I can, and shoot him until he is obviously incapacitated or retreating.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that life often presents itself with such simple problems. AFAIK, most people first learn of a knife attack by noticing that they are bleeding, quickly followed by pain. Knife robberies may be a little more peaceful, but not much so. Only an idiot would announce his attentions at seven yards. Not saying there aren't some idiots around, but it isn't anything I'd bet my life on, or even spend a lot of time planning for.

 

[cmort666]

No, it isn't, unless your gun was already out when the guy got to 7 yards and was advancing. While I'm not really 100% sure of the detailed plans of an announced robber with a knife, I don't care for the odds, and I have some idea of what he may be capable of. IFF someone is actually stupid enough to pull a knife at seven or eight or ten yards and announce a robbery, I'm going to move if I can, draw and shoot if I can, and shoot him until he is obviously incapacitated or retreating.

You just have ask yourself what the response by LEOs was to a very similar recent situation. They shot the drunken Hispanic man who threatened them with a large knife.

Don't want to get shot? Don't threaten people with large knives. It doesn't take an Islamic jurist or a Talmudic scholar to understand that. I'll bet even Joe Biden could grasp the concept if you explained it to him slowly a couple of times.